UP Steam Shop Video update

Spoony81 posted 

Wrong again . It was appealed and a settlement was reached (link below).  I side with Hotwater and Co since everything they have said seems to be on point. I'm sorry that you cover your ears and refuse to hear the bad things about Dickens and the current status of UP Steam

http://myinforms.com/en/a/1972...ual-harassment-suit/

Hi Spoony81 • I read your source in your above link. see copy below.

U.S. Chief District Judge Nancy Freudenthal ruled in favor of the railroad this summer, dismissing the lawsuit.

"CHEYENNE (WTE) - A negligence lawsuit filed against Union Pacific Railroad in 2014 has come to a confidential conclusion.

Carolin Miller, a former administrative assistant at the railroad's Steam Locomotive Shop in Cheyenne, filed a lawsuit saying that Edgar Dickens, the manager of the shop, denied requests she submitted for ergonomically sound office equipment and later forced her to work in the break room as retaliation for filing a sexual assault claim against him.

U.S. Chief District Judge Nancy Freudenthal ruled in favor of the railroad this summer, dismissing the lawsuit.

Miller immediately appealed Freudenthal's…"

1. - Your article talks about the Union Pacific Railroad winning, do you know what happen to Carolin Miller's appeal. "Proof"

2. - Spoonny81, what is your relationship to this story?

Thanks / Gary / My relationship is I want to see Railroad History come back to life.

jmiller320 posted:

You haven't proven anything except you despise Ed Dickens and everything he touches.  Nothing you have said has any evidence of being the truth. 

OK then, who was it that slid the drivers flat on 844? Who was it that completely change the Wilson Blowdown system, and then failed to perform proper and regular blowdowns? Who was it that TOTALLY changed the boiler water treatment chemistry, which caused the serious degradation of all the flues/tubes? Who was it that changed the bearing clearance tolerances from the UP standard blueprint specifications, to MUCH tighter clearances, thus causing SERIOUSLY overheated side rod bearings?

Everything you say is all hear say. 

Actually no! Unlike you, I have actually worked with the current manager and witnessed some of his "issues". Have you?

I know your posse will be on here to claim everything you state is the truth, just like the game telephone. 

 

A couple of hours ago the hole artical was there and it said UP settled out of court.

Al

azubal posted:

A couple of hours ago the hole artical was there and it said UP settled out of court.

Al

That is indeed correct. I have no idea what TRAINROOMGARY is referring to, as I NEVER view any of is "busy posts".

Here's some more info for TRAINMANGARY.

http://myinforms.com/en/a/1975...led-while-on-appeal/

Bob posted:

Here's some more info for TRAINMANGARY.

http://myinforms.com/en/a/1975...led-while-on-appeal/

That being said and because I have no knowledge of the dealings, many lawsuits are settled to avoid more costs and legal fees. It's often cheaper to "pay da' money" than spending money defending even if you are not at fault.  Not saying this is the case but just putting that out there. 

jmiller320 posted:

You haven't proven anything except you despise Ed Dickens and everything he touches.  Nothing you have said has any evidence of being the truth.  Everything you say is all hear say.  I know your posse will be on here to claim everything you state is the truth, just like the game telephone. 

 

Ok, you clearly don't care for what Rich and Hotwater have said which is your choice to do.  My questions would be what do you have to offer as factual and what are your source(s) that you are utilizing?  Can you share with me/us that information?  I don't personally know either of these men, nor Ed Dickens... and I am not a posse member either.     

As a side note, the entire firebox replacement in 2005, along with new boiler braces,stay bolts, caps, new cab wood and insulation ect was filmed and is on DVD, now I am not a boiler maker but if I were gonna cut corners I sure as heck wouldn't film it......and then sell the video to the public on top of it.   I mean that would be a whole new kind of stupid right there.  

jmiller320 posted:

Sure if you want to know the truth, just ask hotwater.  He is full of innuendo and hearsay rumors. 

Jmiller, it is exactly this kind of childish crap that gets your posts deleted. However, I'm going to let this one stay posted so we all know very clearly where you stand.

Open your eyes, man!

Bob posted:

Here's some more info for TRAINMANGARY.

http://myinforms.com/en/a/1975...led-while-on-appeal/

Hi Bob & Marty E - I read the above article, below is a short copy............

Union Pacific lawsuit settled while on appeal

CHEYENNE - A sexual harassment lawsuit naming a local Union Pacific Railroad supervisor has been settled out of court on appeal.

The terms of the settlement between the railroad and Carolin Miller are confidential, Miller's attorney said this week.

Local lawyer Doug Bailey declined to comment further. Attorneys representing the railroad did not respond to requests for comment.

After reading all the information on this thread, my position is the same:

My objective, is I want to see railroad history come back to life, & Union Pacific is going to make that happen.

Gary - Cheers from The Detroit and Mackinac Railway

trainroomgary posted:

After reading all the information on this thread, my position is the same:

My objective, is I want to see railroad historycome back to life, & Union Pacific is going to make that happen.

Really? I guess Norfolk Southern and BNSF are chopped liver?

Hot Water posted: I NEVER view any of his "busy posts".

I like Gary and don't wish to rag on him, but his posts look like ransom notes.

Mill City posted:

Hot Water posted: I NEVER view any of his "busy posts".

I like Gary and don't wish to rag on him, but his posts look like ransom notes.

 

EXACTLY!  Way too much busy crap.

jmiller320 posted:

You haven't proven anything except you despise Ed Dickens and everything he touches.  Nothing you have said has any evidence of being the truth.  Everything you say is all hear say.  I know your posse will be on here to claim everything you state is the truth, just like the game telephone. 

 

Believe me, I'm not a fan of Hot Water's approach to people's questions, etc but I respect the man's knowledge of steam. He wouldn't have the experience and "resume" with steam that he does if he didn't know a thing or two about running and maintaining steam engines. 

I'm not an expert on steam, I just pretend to be - I'm a casual observer, reader and very occasional photographer. I have been fireman on a coal fired 0-6-0T on several 8 mile excursion trips. An expert? No but I will say that after firing that 0-6-0 I learned a TON and it was an incredibly rewarding experience that few get these days!

However, it is very clear that, something is wrong with the leadership and more here. UP went from 2 operable steam engines to 3 inoperable steam engines very quickly. I've seen the scaled up boiler. Ugly, scary stuff. I also think that experienced steam railroaders such as Hot Water and Rich Melvin who, shall we say, clearly know a thing or two about steam locomotives and maintaining one. As one of my favorite local businessman says, "Stevie Wonder can see you are full of $&(@"

FWIW, I was briefly in Cheyenne last summer. Even folks in the museum/station, etc stated concerns about what is happening. 

I tell you what, I got to thinking about it.  I wish I was in Rich or HW's posse, because that would mean some rides on a couple of awesome locos.

Texassp, just keep an eye on this forum and the 765's web site. We'll be selling some tickets for our 2016 trips in a month or so.

trainroomgary posted:

Bob posted:

Here's some more info for TRAINMANGARY.

http://myinforms.com/en/a/1975...led-while-on-appeal/

Hi Bob & Marty E - I read the above article, below is a short copy............

My objective, is I want to see railroad history come back to life, & Union Pacific is going to make that happen.

Gary - Cheers from The Detroit and Mackinac Railway

Um...ok, but what do I have to do with this?  I just commented on the article and the possible reason of why it was settled.

MartyE posted:

trainroomgary posted:

Bob posted:

Here's some more info for TRAINMANGARY.

http://myinforms.com/en/a/1975...led-while-on-appeal/

Hi Bob & Marty E - I read the above article, below is a short copy............

My objective, is I want to see railroad history come back to life, & Union Pacific is going to make that happen.

Gary - Cheers from The Detroit and Mackinac Railway

Um...ok, but what do I have to do with this?  I just commented on the article and the possible reason of why it was settled.

Yeah I felt the same way when he quoted me earlier. I was just sharing the article and he asked my involvement. Umm ok 

So did Edgar pull all the drivers and dismount them along with having Timken come in and evaluate all the axle roller bearings on 844? Didn't he also state it needed new axles along with all new main & connecting rods? I mean he is on camera/ you tube stating all that needed to be done just about exactly a year ago. Or was that just more of his bs? 

Casey Jones2 posted:

So did Edgar pull all the drivers and dismount them along with having Timken come in and evaluate all the axle roller bearings on 844? Didn't he also state it needed new axles along with all new main & connecting rods? I mean he is on camera/ you tube stating all that needed to be done just about exactly a year ago. Or was that just more of his bs? 

Yes, more of his typical bs.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Would somebody PLEASE point out on the pictures of the boiler above what exactly is wrong?  Not everybody on this list knows everything about boilers!

Lots of words here on this thread.  But still no notations on the boiler pictures explaining what is wrong.  I think that would help in the court of opinion.

Also, when the wrong chemicals were placed into 844, could have people and/or UP gotten a big fine from the Feds?

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Also, when the wrong chemicals were placed into 844, could have people and/or UP gotten a big fine from the Feds?

Why would the "Feds" care?

Why were those pieces welded to the staybolt caps?

MTN posted:

Why were those pieces welded to the staybolt caps?

Generally to support small lightweight stuff, such as the sheet metal jacket.

I'm guessing because that was the spot that lined up with the holes in the covers.  Someone in Ed's gang also made a big deal about the fact that the previous crew used pieces of iron pipe as spacers on the mounting studs, as if it mattered.  I suppose Ed will spend $20,000 making polished heat treated titanium ones just because he can.

Well looking at from an "outside perspective", a weld, sheetmetal, material, and fastener engineer, there is nothing in the photos that shows poor workmanship. So I don't understand what the issue is?

 I was curious what the pieces were used for because of the way they were spaced..

When you get down to brass tacks this whole saga is based a couple of facts.  1) Ed was on the steam crew once before and got fired from it. 2) Ed started off on the job the second time around running down those that proceeded him.  3) The people that don't like Ed the most are people that actually KNOW him and have worked with or for him.  4) Not once that I am aware of, has Ed taken any responsibility for ANYTHING bad that has happened while he has been manager. 5) The people that have actually run successful steam programs are basically united in saying Ed is doing it all wrong.  Ed has Never ran a SUCCESSFUL steam program, and most are betting he STILL won't have when (if) this thing hits the rails.  7) The previous steam manager, 20 some odd years ZERO lawsuits.  Ed, 3 lawsuits in a fraction of the time.

I know nothing about Ed Dickens, but out of curiosoty, with the lack of results, why hasn't the UP's management come down on him? Corporations are remarkably unforgiving with employees in today's environment. Couple a lack of results with a female harassment charge, also......big taboo in the corporate world. 

OGR Webmaster posted:

jmiller320 posted:

Sure if you want to know the truth, just ask hotwater.  He is full of innuendo and hearsay rumors. 

Jmiller, it is exactly this kind of childish crap that gets your posts deleted. However, I'm going to let this one stay posted so we all know very clearly where you stand.

Open your eyes, man!

Good idea, Rich. After reading jmiller320's posts on this topic, it's pretty clear that he has lost credibility.

I simply do not understand such blind loyalty to the UP program and Ed Dickens. It's sort of pathetic to see such "fanboy" mentality in the face of such overwhelming steam industry knowledge and experience.

It would seem that from a top management perspective the time for talk about the UP Steam Shop's performance is coming to a decision point.  Senior managers may not understand all the nuances of the steam program but they can see if the program is creating favorable publicity for the railroad with the general public.  If 844 isn't pulling the popular Cheyenne Frontier Days Train on July 23'rd for a third consecutive year I would expect UP management would look at why they are not getting results.

Keystoned Ed posted:

 If 844 isn't pulling the popular Cheyenne Frontier Days Train on July 23'rd for a third consecutive year I would expect UP management would look at why they are not getting results.

I would guess that would be true.

It should be an interesting presentation this Saturday here at the Rocky Mountain Train Show. 

smd4 posted:

I simply do not understand such blind loyalty to the UP program and Ed Dickens. It's sort of pathetic to see such "fanboy" mentality in the face of such overwhelming steam industry knowledge and experience.

And I simply don't understand the global condemnation of some/most of the people at the UP steam program from a very small (and incredibly prolific online) group of people who from time to time blame people at Cheyenne for everything just shy of the Lindberg baby kidnapping.

Yes, no UP steam has run in a long time and this clearly symptomatic of something. That said, so much back and forth flies around every time the UP steam program comes up, on almost any forum, and usually from the same people, whom I have no idea what axe they have to grind and how accurate they really might be one way or another.

Frankly, I'm so sick of the back and forth I wish mods would just lock the threads up anytime it comes up. It's gotten worse than the finger pointing with Pennsy K-4 4-6-2 #1361, something I never thought I'd be able to say that about.

It's sounds to me like some of you are more bothered by the content of the message than of the accuracy of the information and/or the presentation of certain facts.  I don't see how anyone on here would want the UP Steam Program to fail or what any of them would gain if it did.  You are talking about three of the most iconic steam engines in the world and none of them are running.  

When you see what happens with all volunteer groups and non profit steam programs, one really begins to wonder why the UP group that is made of full time paid employees can't get even one of their engines running.  

As it stands Hotwater and Rich are the only ones with specific knowledge who have presented any facts.  Those who disagree with them have only presented loose evidence backed by zero facts.  They have else failed to present commentary by other experts who could counter what HW and Rich have stated.

From the evidence I can see, I am stumped to understand why neither 844 or 3985 are running at this point.  Being in the STEEL industry with a good depth of metallurgical knowledge and understanding along with welding, I can't see anything to back up the claims from ED.  I also have a good understanding of corrosive environments and their effect on steel.

My genuine hope is that UP will get this sorted sooner than later, I believe that every day which passes is a huge missed opportunity and adds to the possibility that a steam program at UP could be shut down.

Rich, thanks for the note re: 765.  If I get the chance, I would love to ride.  I would have given anything the day I saw 3985 to jump aboard.  The two gentlemen I spoke with we're fantastic and I have no idea to this day who they were as I don't recall their names (just know one was the fireman and the other the engineer as that is what they told me).  This was 2004 about the time of the Superbowl in Houston.  Unfortunately this was also before the time of decent phone cameras so I didn't get pictures either.  I think I was so in awe of such a giant working steam locomotive that my mind skipped over many details.  It is for sure a fantastic machine.  If I get the chance to ride behind 765 or 4449, you can bet I will jump on it.

TexasSP posted:

It's sounds to me like some of you are more bothered by the content of the message than of the accuracy of the information and/or the presentation of certain facts.  

As it stands Hotwater and Rich are the only ones with specific knowledge who have presented any facts.  Those who disagree with them have only presented loose evidence backed by zero facts.  They have else failed to present commentary by other experts who could counter what HW and Rich have stated.

That's the point that some have failed to grasp here; they haven't presented any facts other than the obvious (no steam running, names of people who work there, and the news items about the lawsuit which really doesn't have anything to do with the nuts-and-bolts of the locomotives themselves).

They've made a lot of declarations, though. And let me be clear on this even though it'll be picked apart anyway; I'm not saying they're wrong.

I AM, however, saying that I don't know if they're right or wrong. And people can have axes to grind. Were any of these, "insiders" made persona-non-grata by anyone in the UP steam team now and they're just tossing out opinions clouded by anger due to the feeling they got shafted? I'm not saying they are but it is always possible for someone considered to be 'in the know' to be ticked off and spout a bunch of nonsense to back up their sour grapes experience.

Happens all the time in the historic airplane field. I can't count the number of people I've encountered in that field who were considered above reproach (by those who didn't know any better) who spent the remainder of their lives committing character assassinations against real or perceived wrongs.

One of my best friends does this. He's been on a one-man quest to destroy the life of a guy who I am now seriously wondering deserves it or not, all for wrongs that get more colorful with each telling. I am seriously waiting for the day when he tries to make people believe that he's behind the killings previously associated with OJ Simpson. No, I'm not kidding.

"Real or perceived" is the key here.

Again, not saying they're wrong. I am saying I only see one side, from a small and extremely vocal bunch who would stand on a street corner with a sign decrying the people in charge with the UP steam team if they thought it'd do any good.

Is theirs a worthy and just position? Beats the heck out of me. You can't argue that nothing's steaming right now but as for the rest, I'm not counting on any one or two people who might have axes to grind to relay info they either may or may not be accurate in doing so-

-and neither should any of the rest of you.

RickO, the 611 work was done by both volunteers and paid contractors.

P51, there have been dozens of specific examples of the problems with the UP steam program posted around the net, by knowledgeable people who were privy to inside information about the program. I'm not going to re-state them here, but a Google search will reveal them.

No one has an axe to grind. What is in play here is a concern about a steam program that was once a shining example of how a good steam program was run, but is now just a pathetic shadow of its former self.

May quotes to answer here.

“This thread might last if there was some real point, counterpoint exchanges with facts.”  The only fact the anti Ed people are posting is the fact that there are no steam locomotives running.  Everything else is hearsay and boarders on slander.

“My questions would be what do you have to offer as factual and what are your source(s) that you are utilizing?  Can you share with me/us that information?  I don't personally know either of these men, nor Ed Dickens... and I am not a posse member either. “  I have seen you jump on the I hate Ed band wagon on other posts.  I read the same things you do and I don't care if people hate Ed Dickens.  I posted a couple photos from the Union Pacific page and they are the ones who took the unit apart and found things that were suspect and decided to do a complete rebuild.  It's their equipment.  The more you read the more it sounds like some people may have been involved in the work and don't like it because it's not business as usual.

“it is exactly this kind of childish crap that gets your posts deleted.”  Nothing in more childish then to lock a post because you don't agree and it's you forum.  Kind of like taking your ball and going home.

“Yes, more of his typical bs.”  Standard answer with nothing factual to back up his response.  There is a lot to learn on the internet and some of the reading I have done today explains a lot.

“After reading jmiller320's posts on this topic, it's pretty clear that he has lost credibility.  Lost what credibility?  All I ever did was point out that every time a post about the UP Steam program is posted the same person gets on here and talks trash about Ed and the steam program with nothing but hearsay and innuendo.  Nothing he says would stand up in a court of law, but many jump on his band wagon because they think he is some kind of demigod.

I simply do not understand such blind loyalty to the UP program and Ed Dickens. It's sort of pathetic to see such "fanboy" mentality in the face of such overwhelming steam industry knowledge and experience.”  The same could be said for all the foamers that get on here and trash talk Ed base op the opinion of a couple people.

“As it stands Hotwater and Rich are the only ones with specific knowledge who have presented any facts.  Those who disagree with them have only presented loose evidence backed by zero facts.  They have else failed to present commentary by other experts who could counter what HW and Rich have stated.”  Rich and Hotwater have not presented any facts about the rebuild of the steam locomotives.  None of them are involved with the project, they get their information from the grapevine and embellish what the hear and say.

jmiller320 posted:

May quotes to answer here.

“This thread might last if there was some real point, counterpoint exchanges with facts.”  The only fact the anti Ed people are posting is the fact that there are no steam locomotives running.  Everything else is hearsay and boarders on slander.

“My questions would be what do you have to offer as factual and what are your source(s) that you are utilizing?  Can you share with me/us that information?  I don't personally know either of these men, nor Ed Dickens... and I am not a posse member either. “  I have seen you jump on the I hate Ed band wagon on other posts.  I read the same things you do and I don't care if people hate Ed Dickens.  I posted a couple photos from the Union Pacific page and they are the ones who took the unit apart and found things that were suspect and decided to do a complete rebuild.  It's their equipment.  The more you read the more it sounds like some people may have been involved in the work and don't like it because it's not business as usual.

“it is exactly this kind of childish crap that gets your posts deleted.”  Nothing in more childish then to lock a post because you don't agree and it's you forum.  Kind of like taking your ball and going home.

“Yes, more of his typical bs.”  Standard answer with nothing factual to back up his response.  There is a lot to learn on the internet and some of the reading I have done today explains a lot.

“After reading jmiller320's posts on this topic, it's pretty clear that he has lost credibility.  Lost what credibility?  All I ever did was point out that every time a post about the UP Steam program is posted the same person gets on here and talks trash about Ed and the steam program with nothing but hearsay and innuendo.  Nothing he says would stand up in a court of law, but many jump on his band wagon because they think he is some kind of demigod.

I simply do not understand such blind loyalty to the UP program and Ed Dickens. It's sort of pathetic to see such "fanboy" mentality in the face of such overwhelming steam industry knowledge and experience.”  The same could be said for all the foamers that get on here and trash talk Ed base op the opinion of a couple people.

“As it stands Hotwater and Rich are the only ones with specific knowledge who have presented any facts.  Those who disagree with them have only presented loose evidence backed by zero facts.  They have else failed to present commentary by other experts who could counter what HW and Rich have stated.”  Rich and Hotwater have not presented any facts about the rebuild of the steam locomotives. 

Really? You are totally clueless when it comes to hands-on steam locomotive maintenance and/or operation.

None of them are involved with the project, they get their information from the grapevine and embellish what the hear and say.

Not quit pal! There are still many members of the "former steam crew" that still live, and more than one still works for the UP, right there in Cheyenne. They witness what has been going on EVERY SINGLE DAY. Yor sir, are the one dealing in "hearsay and innuendo". 

I ask again, just what hands on steam experience do YOU have, to continually refute the ongoing FACTS concerning the mess in Cheyenne?

OGR Webmaster posted:

P51, there have been dozens of specific examples of the problems with the UP steam program posted around the net, by knowledgeable people who were privy to inside information about the program. I'm not going to re-state them here, but a Google search will reveal them.

No one has an axe to grind. What is in play here is a concern about a steam program that was once a shining example of how a good steam program was run, but is now just a pathetic shadow of its former self.

You really don't seem to have gotten my earlier point. For those of us who don't know the secret handshake (which is the majority of us), we don't actually know anything other than the following:

1. No steam is running. That is of course a massive point.
2. Ed has/had some legal issues that weren't directly related to point # 1

You, Jack and the small number of others are telling us on every train-related forum on Earth that your info is coming from "knowledgeable people" and it may very well be.

But we don't know that other than you saying so. In some cases, you're expecting us to take third (or fourth, fifth, or...) hand unquoted info from unnamed sources as gospel? Seriously? And you wonder why people might have a small doubt there, especially when it's almost always vague?

And if any of you do have an axe to grind, you sure as heck wouldn't admit it (to us or probably even to yourselves), would you?

You guys might be right. Ed and the boys might be doing human sacrifices in the steam shop at night for all I know. Frankly, I don't care about what the heck is going on there because it's simply none of my business. I just want steam to run out there again. Again, we only know for sure that Ed's had some legal problems and there's no steam running.

Now, if you limited your issue to an opinion that the suits in Omaha show him the door because no steam is running, that's fair enough because it is a fact and businesses demand results. I sure wouldn't have a job if I failed in my annual goals that badly. As for the rest, please, for the love of God, stop assuming we're all going to take every vague statement about how evil Ed and the boys are from an unnamed source as if it were the voice of the Almighty from on High. Some of you guys are worse than the rumor mill I had to battle daily as a unit commander in the Army, and that's saying an awful lot.

Don't forget, "might" is the operative word here. I am one of the few people here who'll readily admit I have no clue what's going on in Cheyenne. If I had to bet, I'd put more than a few bucks on people speaking out of turn, with innuendo that nobody knows where it came from.

I'm not sure why I keep trying to get this point across because it's really going right past without sticking.

One thing is certain. There is not one former crew member who will say anything remotely nice about Ed Dickens. Not one. We can even find former crew who only worked under him who wont say anything positive. Wasatch Railroad contractors are not happy with Ed Dickens attempts at slandering them. Most of the steam engine operators want nothing to do with Dickens (odd as Steve Lee was beloved by all the steam world).. Where there is smoke there just might be a fire.