It seems that the higher profile, veteran people in this hobby (whether model or prototype RRs) are often subjected to personal attacks, jealousy, and innuendo, and that's really sad.
As for the Gettysburg operation, in the years before the accident, it was fun to observe/photograph, but I personally would not ride one of their trains.
Gregg posted:From the net.... accurate or not I have no idea.
On the evening of June 16, 1995, a series of lax maintenance and operational errors combined to cause No.1278’s crown sheet to fail, and the blast of escaping steam burned three crewmen (fortunately, all survived). The National Transportation Safety Board investigated, determining that the modern, Canadian design of the firebox with button-head staybolts may have prevented additional injuries (and perhaps deaths) from this incident. Since then the Federal Railroad Administration has developed an all-new set of rules for the maintenance and operation of steam locomotives, and all of us are safer today because of No.1278’s bad experience.
Ok what's a button head stay bolt. Is it shown in one of previous posts? Anyone here ever have to drop or put out the fire?
Google is your friend. Try searching for "Button head staybolt". Also lots of information in the Locomotive Cyclopedias.
Borden Tunnel posted:It seems that the higher profile, veteran people in this hobby (whether model or prototype RRs) are often subjected to personal attacks, jealousy, and innuendo, and that's really sad.
As for the Gettysburg operation, in the years before the accident, it was fun to observe/photograph, but I personally would not ride one of their trains.
I think you have it wrong. "These so called higher profile, veteran people in this hobby (whether model or prototype RRs) are often subjected to personal attacks, jealousy, and innuendo" If you read the postings these are the people that are attacking. Calling people Koolaid drinkers and constantly spreading hearsay evidence and spewing their pent up haltered for the manager of the UP Steam program. Anytime someone comes on here and asks a question these same people start attacking and the moderators lock the forum.
I have no iron in this fire, but it's hard to ignore those with knowledge of steam engines while listening to those with no knowledge tell us how those with the knowledge are wrong and/or biased.
So where are those with knowledge who support what information is coming out of the UP Steam Program? Are their experts who think Ed is doing everything correctly?
I wonder how the former employees lawsuit is coming along, you know the one where they sued because the new guy wanted them (gasp) to cut their hair and dress up a bit.
wb47 posted:I wonder how the former employees lawsuit is coming along, you know the one where they sued because the new guy wanted them (gasp) to cut their hair and dress up a bit.
You must be kidding. The sexual harassment lawsuit was settled OUT OF COURT last year, and Carol received quit a nice sum. The next lawsuit, Henry Krenning, has begun depositions, with a jury trial set for late August or September.
I took away from the report that, If the would have had an injector pressure guage installed at time they might have know that even though the water was turned on it wasn't feeding adequately and eventual low water caused crownsheet to bag?
aterry11 posted:I took away from the report that, If the would have had an injector pressure guage installed at time they might have know that even though the water was turned on it wasn't feeding adequately and eventual low water caused crownsheet to bag?
What is "an injector pressure gauge"? I've never heard of such a device. If the cab crew didn't realize that the injector/injectors were NOT putting water into the boiler, but spilling it all out on the ground, then they had no business operating a steam locomotive.
Hot Water posted:aterry11 posted:I took away from the report that, If the would have had an injector pressure guage installed at time they might have know that even though the water was turned on it wasn't feeding adequately and eventual low water caused crownsheet to bag?
What is "an injector pressure gauge"? I've never heard of such a device. If the cab crew didn't realize that the injector/injectors were NOT putting water into the boiler, but spilling it all out on the ground, then they had no business operating a steam locomotive.
Yeah, something is messed up.
If the water in the glasses was at a constant level because they were plugged (meaning, it looked like they had water), the fireman must have been using the injector for some other reason, like lowering pressure. What was going through the crews' minds after turning on the gun and watching the pressure continue to rise ("Wow, she must really be hot today!")
jmiller320 posted:I think you have it wrong. "These so called higher profile, veteran people in this hobby (whether model or prototype RRs) are often subjected to personal attacks, jealousy, and innuendo" If you read the postings these are the people that are attacking. Calling people Koolaid drinkers and constantly spreading hearsay evidence and spewing their pent up haltered for the manager of the UP Steam program. Anytime someone comes on here and asks a question these same people start attacking and the moderators lock the forum.
Sigh...
There are none so blind as those who will not see.
The truth will set you free.
LOL. You could copy, save, and paste this thread and just re-post it every month and it would almost read word for word the same. It's like a video on a loop that happens only once a month. Shortly it will be locked so in a month it can start again.
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jmiller320 posted:The truth will set you free.
I am quite free, thank you.
jmiller320 posted:The truth will set you free.
So just to be clear, you don't have any other industry experts to counter the claims made on here by industry experts? I am seriously interested in hearing the other side (if it exists) from those in the industry who support what Ed and the UP Steam Program are doing. In all honesty, it would be awesome if they were on the right track. I want to see the Big Boy under steam and moving down the tracks. Got to see 3985 and spoke at length with the engineer and fireman when they were parked on a siding in Houston. That was one of the coolest experiences of my life.
Borden Tunnel posted:It seems that the higher profile, veteran people in this hobby (whether model or prototype RRs) are often subjected to personal attacks, jealousy, and innuendo, and that's really sad.
Thank you.
It is not easy for us elite experts on this forum.
TEXASSP, No one can come on this site and present the other side because the moderator quickly edits, deletes or locks the forum. Many have tried in the past and now they just watch from the sidelines.
jmiller320 posted:TEXASSP, No one can come on this site and present the other side
You keep posting this over, and over, and over. Just WHIT IS the "other side"? Poor 844 has been under steam since July 2013. Why not?
because the moderator quickly edits, deletes or locks the forum. Many have tried in the past and now they just watch from the sidelines.
The other side is the truth, something you and some others on here can't handle. The photos I posted came off a posting that was on the internet. It was they that decided that with what they uncovered that they needed to further investigate and fix. I'm sure the keep it running no matter what worked in the past, but why not fix it right while the unit is down. That's why you come one here every time someone releases information that shows progress on the steam program and have to spread you innuendo and false hearsay information. Just like your comment on the lawsuit. The judge dismiss the case without prejudice according to the newspaper. That's not a settlement.
jmiller320 posted:The other side is the truth, something you and some others on here can't handle. The photos I posted came off a posting that was on the internet. It was they that decided that with what they uncovered that they needed to further investigate and fix. I'm sure the keep it running no matter what worked in the past, but why not fix it right while the unit is down. That's why you come one here every time someone releases information that shows progress on the steam program and have to spread you innuendo and false hearsay information. Just like your comment on the lawsuit. The judge dismiss the case without prejudice according to the newspaper. That's not a settlement.
jmiller320 posted:TEXASSP, No one can come on this site and present the other side because the moderator quickly edits, deletes or locks the forum. Many have tried in the past and now they just watch from the sidelines.
I have followed these postings pretty closely out of interest. I rarely add anything because I have nothing significant to add. However, I asked the questions because you and some others make accusations without any evidence other than some promotional videos. So what is this truth and who else is telling it other than those at the UP Steam Shop?
I have never seen anything deleted from these threads as I usually subscribe and receive updates on them. It seems more like you have an axe to grind with some of these people than any interest in presenting facts and evidence. As a side note, I am not particularly a fan of the way Rich and the OGR crew manages this site. However, I don't know the guy personally and have never seen anything he's done to be unethical, immoral, illegal, or the like as far as this site goes.
As for Hotwater, don't know him either other than reputation. I do find what he posts interesting due to his vast knowledge of steam and railroading in general. He is obviously very passionate, but what else would you expect from a guy with his history and credentials.
If you don't feel comfortable posting information about the other experts in the field who contradict what Rich, Hotwater, and others are saying, my email is in my profile. Seriously, I am not trying to be combative, but it's hard to believe what you have posted without any real evidence to back it up. Promotional videos for the most part aren't worth the bandwidth and server space they use.
jmiller320 posted:Just like your comment on the lawsuit. The judge dismiss the case without prejudice according to the newspaper. That's not a settlement.
Since you seem to be inthralled with nonfactual information off the internet, I suggest you dig a bit deeper on that sexual harassment suit. The attorney for Carol discovered that the female judges husband, former Governor of Wyoming, is still a prominent attorney for the same law firm that was representing the UP RR. Upon appealing to a higher court, that judge found grounds to reinstate the case, at which point the UP offered a substantial settlement, out of court.
jmiller320 posted:The other side is the truth, something you and some others on here can't handle. The photos I posted came off a posting that was on the internet. It was they that decided that with what they uncovered that they needed to further investigate and fix. I'm sure the keep it running no matter what worked in the past, but why not fix it right while the unit is down. That's why you come one here every time someone releases information that shows progress on the steam program and have to spread you innuendo and false hearsay information. Just like your comment on the lawsuit. The judge dismiss the case without prejudice according to the newspaper. That's not a settlement.
Wrong again . It was appealed and a settlement was reached (link below). I side with Hotwater and Co since everything they have said seems to be on point. I'm sorry that you cover your ears and refuse to hear the bad things about Dickens and the current status of UP Steam
Ted Hikel posted:Did anyone notice this comment in the UP video?
“We carefully painted the internal air passages with a special enamel.”
Is painting the internal portions of air brake components a standard practice or is E.D. doing something extra special?
Just a thought. But if that paint peals off, would that cause issues in the line?
Just curious, does the steam shop own any CNC machines? I have watched some of the laborious machining, such as the stay bolts and wonder why items such as these aren't just farmed out if no onsite CNC is available.
I haven't seen anything in the videos to indicate major advances in the restoration. Just a bunch of little stuff that maybe could have been sent out. I guess I want to see the tubes back in and big stuff that has been restored going on and whatever restoration must be done on the tender, etc. What am I missing?
Obviously I know nothing, so I defer to those who do.
jmiller320 posted:TEXASSP, No one can come on this site and present the other side because the moderator quickly edits, deletes or locks the forum. Many have tried in the past and now they just watch from the sidelines.
The handful of posts that have been deleted from threads like this were those which were blatantly false or just trying to stir the pot. YOUR responses are still here, aren't they? You're wrong, but at least you believe in what you are saying.
jmiller320 posted:The other side is the truth, something you and some others on here can't handle. The photos I posted came off a posting that was on the internet.
I can handle the truth just fine. Those of you who want to ignore the truth, even when it is right in front of you, are the people that concern me.
Yes, the photos you posted came off the internet. And we all know that everything you read on the internet is the truth! 
As Hot Water said earlier in this thread, those photos do not show anything illegal or of bad practice. A non-load bearing sheet metal support stud is welded to a welded staybolt cap. Nothing unusual there at all. But that photo has been used to gin up all kinds of negatives about the so-called "sloppy workmanship" prevalent on the old crew. When compared to the utter nonsense going on in Cheyenne these days, there is no comparison.
Just a thought here, but really who owns these locomotives anyway, I was thinking that UP still did, so if they are happy with the new guy who are we to find fault. Maybe there was cost cutting involved here on UP's part. I seem to recall that some of the employees were paid 77000 and up to work in the shop.
wb47 posted:Just a thought here, but really who owns these locomotives anyway, I was thinking that UP still did,
Yes, all the locomotives in the Cheyenne facility are owned by UP RR.
so if they are happy with the new guy who are we to find fault.
Well, some managers in Omaha are NOT "happy with him", what with all the Union Labor claims and lawsuits brought against UP over the past five years, many of which were settled at substantial dollar amounts to the UP. Pressure is now being brought to bare on the UP steam shop management concerning why nothing has operated since July 2013. A certain person from Omaha was in Cheyenne, within the last week, desiring explanations concerning whether 844 will be ready for the College World Series in Omaha, as well as the Denver Post Cheyenne Frontier Days Special in July. Thus, lots of "thrashing" has been going on, rushing 844 "back together".
Maybe there was cost cutting involved here on UP's part.
No "cost cutting" at the steam shop. In fact they have been hiring more people.
I seem to recall that some of the employees were paid 77000 and up to work in the shop.
A logical wage for union card carrying Boilermaker, Machinist, Welder, Pipe Fitter, Roundhouse Foreman, and General Foreman. Plus, that annual wage probably does NOT include overtime.
Hot Water posted:Well, some managers in Omaha are NOT "happy with him", what with all the Union Labor claims and lawsuits brought against UP over the past five years, many of which were settled at substantial dollar amounts to the UP. Pressure is now being brought to bare on the UP steam shop management concerning why nothing has operated since July 2013. A certain person from Omaha was in Cheyenne, within the last week, desiring explanations concerning whether 844 will be ready for the College World Series in Omaha, as well as the Denver Post Cheyenne Frontier Days Special in July. Thus, lots of "thrashing" has been going on, rushing 844 "back together".
Why in the world would UP tolerate 1 man causing all this drama, costs, lawsuits, and labor strife? If it were I and this was the case he would be gone as well as those who have been allowing this to happen. So either UP have some really dense folks in charge or something.
MartyE posted:Hot Water posted:Well, some managers in Omaha are NOT "happy with him", what with all the Union Labor claims and lawsuits brought against UP over the past five years, many of which were settled at substantial dollar amounts to the UP. Pressure is now being brought to bare on the UP steam shop management concerning why nothing has operated since July 2013. A certain person from Omaha was in Cheyenne, within the last week, desiring explanations concerning whether 844 will be ready for the College World Series in Omaha, as well as the Denver Post Cheyenne Frontier Days Special in July. Thus, lots of "thrashing" has been going on, rushing 844 "back together".
Why in the world would UP tolerate 1 man causing all this drama, costs, lawsuits, and labor strife?
First, lets all remember that the steam shop, as well as the executive passenger shop, report to the Human Resources Management Dept., i.e. the E-VP of Personnel. ANY "internal investigation" of all the "personnel problems" over the last five years in Cheyenne, would reflect VERY badly on the A-VP Personnel.
If it were I and this was the case he would be gone as well as those who have been allowing this to happen.
Might not be quite as easy as that, what with the various "personnel related" lawsuits, and one still remaining to go to court.
So either UP have some really dense folks in charge or something.
Well, you said it, not me. On the other hand, the UP has had far bigger issues to contend with over the past 12 months anyway, plus there were/are many, many, members of management that would just as soon the whole steam program go away anyway!
Well all I know is if this was happening where I worked, this guy would have been gone a long time ago if the allegations were true. Folks can still be dismissed and the lawsuits continue. None of this makes much sense in my mind.
I am following this saga as I am interested in seeing the Big Boy restored. Along with the Challenger and 844.
As you guys may have seen Flying Scotsman just returned to steam after 10 years of restoration at a cost of £4.2 Million. Admittedly this process had its own problems.
I hate to think what UP's bill is going to be restoring the 3 Locos.
Nick
Nick12DMC posted:I am following this saga as I am interested in seeing the Big Boy restored. Along with the Challenger and 844.
As you guys may have seen Flying Scotsman just returned to steam after 10 years of restoration at a cost of £4.2 Million. Admittedly this process had its own problems.
I hate to think what UP's bill is going to be restoring the 3 Locos.
Nick
The UP "bill" may not be as much as one might think. There is a distinct possibility, what with all the budget/personnel cuts going on at UP, the entire "big boy project" could simply be canceled, especially since May 10, 2019 is only about 3 years hence. Just having 844 might be "good enough" in the eyes of current/future UP management. Also, Challenger #3985 doesn't need to be "restored". All 3985 requires is the FRA mandated 15 year boiler inspection plus a new set of superheater units, all of which could be accomplished within 12 months.
Is it realistic to think that the big boy would be ready by May 2019?
John Mills posted:Is it realistic to think that the big boy would be ready by May 2019?
No. Especially not under the current personnel at Cheyenne.
Hot Water posted:John Mills posted:Is it realistic to think that the big boy would be ready by May 2019?
No. Especially not under the current personnel at Cheyenne.
I suspected that would be the case. Do you think any of the engines will run by than under current management?
RickO posted:I thought the money for the bigboy restoration was donated from an "outside source"?
That was a rumored proposal, prior to removal of the 4014 from the Pomona, CA Rail Giants Museum. When it wound up taking WAY TOO long, the rumored "financial backer" finally got fed-up and backed out.
Sure if you want to know the truth, just ask hotwater. He is full of innuendo and hearsay rumors.
jmiller320 posted:Sure if you want to know the truth, just ask hotwater. He is full of innuendo and hearsay rumors.
Go ahead and PROVE me incorrect!
You haven't proven anything except you despise Ed Dickens and everything he touches. Nothing you have said has any evidence of being the truth. Everything you say is all hear say. I know your posse will be on here to claim everything you state is the truth, just like the game telephone.
And NONE of the three steamers were around when the first transcon was finished.....! BTW, are the UP119 and CP JUPITER still around?
The Steam Program is under HR. The steam program is also in charge of the big rotary snowplows. So does that means HR is in charge of them? If that is true, who came up with that arrangement?
