UP Steam Shop Video update

jethat posted:

One thing is certain. There is not one former crew member who will say anything remotely nice about Ed Dickens. Not one. We can even find former crew who only worked under him who wont say anything positive. Wasatch Railroad contractors are not happy with Ed Dickens attempts at slandering them. Most of the steam engine operators want nothing to do with Dickens (odd as Steve Lee was beloved by all the steam world).. Where there is smoke there just might be a fire.

Excellent points. Add to that, the current manager from the UP steam shop does not participate on, nor attend, ANY of the technical committees related to steam locomotive preservation and compliance with FRA regulations, and development of future regulations related to recommended practices and safety.

jmiller320 posted:

May quotes to answer here.

I have seen you jump on the I hate Ed band wagon on other posts.  I read the same things you do and I don't care if people hate Ed Dickens.  I posted a couple photos from the Union Pacific page and they are the ones who took the unit apart and found things that were suspect and decided to do a complete rebuild.  It's their equipment.  The more you read the more it sounds like some people may have been involved in the work and don't like it because it's not business as usual.

 

That's right, I don't care for the current manager...never said otherwise, but that is of my choosing and not because of some Rich or Hotwater bandwagon or agenda.  I would have to toss this in the mix just for thought, if you think about what was done with the 611 in just less than a year then you have to wonder about the 844.  

The 611 sat for 20+ years and was towed to Spencer, completely stripped of her jacket,lagging,appliances,gauges,grates,rear flue sheet not to mention all her tubes/flues removed, all super heater units removed, inspected, repaired and tested.  Her boiler interior media blasted, cleaned and her boiler was UT'd,  New flues/tubes installed, new rear sheet manufactured and installed, appliances tested/inspected and rebuilt as/if required, gauges repaired,replaced inspected and tested ect.  Everything re-installed, body work on the tender, new paint, test fired, test run and last years excursions....then there was this years engine truck work, and she is back down in Spencer right now.  Point being, they didn't just dust of the 611, toss some coal in the firebox and off they went.  The 611's rebuild was pretty dang extensive, thorough and completed on schedule.  Now even if you exclude the time spent in Pomona getting the 4014 ready, ripping out the ceiling in the steam shop, the 844 still is not close to being completed, and they are a full time shop, the 611 crew had some paid staff and a bunch of volunteers but were ready to run on time.   I think that when you stop and think about this one does have to wonder at the very least?  Even if there was this issue and that issue regardless of who or how it was caused...3 years almost at this point?.....Eeeesh. 

TexasSP posted:

My genuine hope is that UP will get this sorted sooner than later, I believe that every day which passes is a huge missed opportunity and adds to the possibility that a steam program at UP could be shut down.

 

Maybe the higher up suits at UP want the steam program shut down and so they are shutting it down without officially shutting it down if you get my drift. It's just a conspiracy theory but it would explain why Ed still has a job there after showing no results and having those lawsuits against him. It would also explain why Ed doesn't attend those technical meetings since it's his job (in my conspiracy theory) to keep these locomotives not running. It also makes Ed the bad guy in the eyes of the railfan community as it seems the majority of the railfan community side with HW and Rich. The suits on the other hand get away unscathed. For taking the "heat" Ed is probably well paid. So maybe Ed isn't really that bad of a guy, maybe he's like that corporate scapegoat in the Little Caesar's commercial?

Ya never know. Stranger things have happened. Just trying to lighten things up a bit!

I'm not one for conspiracy theories, but I have to admit it's not impossible that your idea could be a valid one!

For your reading....... Not a ransom note. 

Steam Update: No Swimsuits Required / Posted January 19, 2016 11:58 AM CDT

http://www.up.com/aboutup/comm...es/steam-update-1-16

At UP's Cheyenne Shop, from left, are Ed Dickens, senior manager - Heritage Operations, J. Scott George, director - Steam Shop, Austin Barker, foreman general and Bruce Kirk, machinist.

Have you ever held a cast iron skillet? It’s hard to imagine repairing or replacing something made out of such heavy, durable material. However, after more than 70 years of wear and tear on locomotive No. 844’s turret valves made of an even stronger metal – cast steel – the Union Pacific steam team is doing just that.

“We’ve started working through all the valves and piping – basically everything steam and water flow through,” said Austin Barker, foreman general – Heritage Fleet Operations. “We're replacing bolts, studs, re-machining and lapping the lower portion of the valves (the valve seating surfaces) and replacing many old, worn internal components. We’re making sure everything is still sound metal and repairing anything that isn’t.”

In general, components created back in the steam locomotive era are really heavy duty, just like a cast iron skillet. However, it’s natural for components to need to be rebuilt – especially when steam and water are involved. (More to read at the above link.)

Ah, more than ever since 1829 and the Rainhill trails rail fans have been fired up.

Sounds like there are many problems cropping up for UP with their steam program than we are privy too. Given the struggle to find decent nails made of real metal I can see how finding quality metal up for the task of a steam locomotive can be tricky. When engines are run gently properly by experienced crews, and properly maintained they last a long time. I recall they are rebuilding and tearing out parts of the shop around the engines. I can see how trying to run to projects in the same place can cause problems. Most restorations I have heard of the shop is not also in a a state of "restoration." Working on any thing while your tools, workbench , and workshop are in a state of flux and shared causes real problems. Do I know that is all of it? I don't, I do know I have tried working in an environment where things are constantly moved on me and it really slows things down, way more than you would think.

As for how steam engines should be built, designed what have you, agree it needs to be safe, and understand the disagreement will never end.

Allin posted:

 

Sounds like there are many problems cropping up for UP with their steam program than we are privy too. Given the struggle to find decent nails made of real metal I can see how finding quality metal up for the task of a steam locomotive can be tricky.

The makers of quality metals are out there if one knows where to look.  They're not buying this stuff from big-box hardware stores.

Rusty

The TEXAS SPECIAL:  The REAL RED streak of the golden prairies!

Don't know anything about the "special enamel" mentioned above but I do know that is why you use black pipe for gas piping  and galvanized piping on your water lines in your house!

The galvanized piping may flake off, if used on gas piping, causing big problems in the gas valves of your gas fired appliances.

I definitely don't know a thing about the complexity or technical details of restoring steam locomotive's.

After reading all the posts, specifically the one's implying Ed's alleged mis-management of the program I am left with 1 question.

UP is a huge and quite successful railroad and has been for a long time.   They have spent huge amounts of money restoring pieces of American History over the years. But they are still a corporation that has to deal with efficiencies, profits, board member direction, etc

My question is if Ed's mismanagement of the restoration is true then why would UP accept his performance running the restoration project.   Why wouldn't they simply replace him? If for no other reason than UP's reputation.

Lastly, this forum is simply the best there is thanks to the direction and moderation.  I just wish I didn't end up seeing a bunch of personal attacks about different opinions     I find the topic extremely interesting and was hoping to gleam some accurate information about the project.  But I find myself being more confused about the facts than before I started reading this.  Disclaimer - I have never claimed to be the brightest light in the string so I will admit to having a more than casual association with confusion. 

Ed

Ed Walsh posted:

I definitely don't know a thing about the complexity or technical details of restoring steam locomotive's.

After reading all the posts, specifically the one's implying Ed's alleged mis-management of the program I am left with 1 question.

UP is a huge and quite successful railroad and has been for a long time.   They have spent huge amounts of money restoring pieces of American History over the years. But they are still a corporation that has to deal with efficiencies, profits, board member direction, etc

Ed

Ed

This is probably the biggest question out there. 

If he's screwing up, he should have been gone years ago as we have had this conversations for at least the last 3.  Seems like an awfully long time to have a guy messing up a program and causing legal issues to stay around.

Either the leadership of UP has a different opinion than HW and Rich or they are incompetent.  I have no idea which it is.

jmiller320 posted:

 

“After reading jmiller320's posts on this topic, it's pretty clear that he has lost credibility.  Lost what credibility?  All I ever did was point out that every time a post about the UP Steam program is posted the same person gets on here and talks trash about Ed and the steam program with nothing but hearsay and innuendo.  Nothing he says would stand up in a court of law, but many jump on his band wagon because they think he is some kind of demigod.

Actually, if you're referring either to Hot Water or Rich, they would absolutely qualify as experts in their fields, and their testimony would absolutely  "stand up in a court of law."

I think the question of "why" to UP management is a good one, one which no one outside of the inner circle of executive management will ever know.  At least not the whole story.  In large companies, it's much easier to hide the "dead bodies" so to speak and I have seen some interesting things.  People do a lot to protect secrets and their own jobs, nothing in this world is unfeasible.

On a side note, these extreme analogies being used by others is rather entertaining.  It makes me wonder why those outside the steam community are so passionate about this.  It's almost like some are angry because they found out Santa Claus is not real and are in the "shoot the messenger" mode.

You know I really don't care if they ever run again. I'm more worried about the UP as a whole is financially stable. 

The steam program is great but as a share holder if the program undermines profititbility then stop it. Too many people have been laid off to worry about a few steam engines. 

I can tell you that allot of share holders are not fans of the steam program and have lobbied to have it scrapped. 

david1 posted:

You know I really don't care if they ever run again. I'm more worried about the UP as a whole is financially stable. 

The steam program is great but as a share holder if the program undermines profititbility then stop it. Too many people have been laid off to worry about a few steam engines. 

I can tell you that allot of share holders are not fans of the steam program and have lobbied to have it scrapped. 

The steam program up until recently justified itself as a marketing tool. Advertising is very expensive and when UP's Steam engines roll into a city they get tons of publicity. Under Steve Lee there were actually years the program paid for itself.  No steam on the rails leaves no justification for the expense so I don't see the shareholders tolerating the expense much longer for sure.

Ed Walsh posted:

I definitely don't know a thing about the complexity or technical details of restoring steam locomotive's.

After reading all the posts, specifically the one's implying Ed's alleged mis-management of the program I am left with 1 question.

UP is a huge and quite successful railroad and has been for a long time.   They have spent huge amounts of money restoring pieces of American History over the years. But they are still a corporation that has to deal with efficiencies, profits, board member direction, etc

My question is if Ed's mismanagement of the restoration is true then why would UP accept his performance running the restoration project.   Why wouldn't they simply replace him? If for no other reason than UP's reputation.

Lastly, this forum is simply the best there is thanks to the direction and moderation.  I just wish I didn't end up seeing a bunch of personal attacks about different opinions     I find the topic extremely interesting and was hoping to gleam some accurate information about the project.  But I find myself being more confused about the facts than before I started reading this.  Disclaimer - I have never claimed to be the brightest light in the string so I will admit to having a more than casual association with confusion. 

Ed

A couple of things.  Those in the know would tell you that Ed should have never been hired for the job in the first place.  After being let go from the steam shop once, it's questionable whether he should even been allowed to work there again in what had always been a plum assignment, let alone run the place, especially when he has had issues elsewhere where he has worked on the UP system and considering his qualifications to be the boss of the steam operations are weak at best.  BUT, someone somewhere was charmed by his smooth talk and he got the job.  Now, those who gave him job don't want to see him fail, because it makes THEM look bad.  Also, as far as upper management is concerned, what little they likely know about it is that Ed says everything's broken, and it's going to take time and money to fix. The fact that most of that is pure BS has probably never been examined more closely. NOW. add in the lawsuits, and they know if they fire Ed now, it could be spun as an admission of guilt on his part, and obviously they want to avoid that.  My guess is even if somebody has put all the pieces together, they probably figure they're kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place at least until the lawsuits are dealt with.

Dieselbob posted:

 The fact that most of that is pure BS has probably never been examined more closely. NOW. add in the lawsuits, and they know if they fire Ed now, it could be spun as an admission of guilt on his part, and obviously they want to avoid that.  My guess is even if somebody has put all the pieces together, they probably figure they're kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place at least until the lawsuits are dealt with.

What a poor way of running a business if this is the case.  Seems more damage could be done and "the guy" that hired him could look worse.  I'm not sure I buy this line of thought for the "guy" or the lawsuit.

Hmm, usually in any other company if there are a series of lawsuits brought up against a person, that said person is usually walked out the door regardless if they are guilty or not. I hope this is resolved quickly and the steam program can be put back on "track".

MartyE posted:

Dieselbob posted:

 The fact that most of that is pure BS has probably never been examined more closely. NOW. add in the lawsuits, and they know if they fire Ed now, it could be spun as an admission of guilt on his part, and obviously they want to avoid that.  My guess is even if somebody has put all the pieces together, they probably figure they're kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place at least until the lawsuits are dealt with.

What a poor way of running a business if this is the case.  Seems more damage could be done and "the guy" that hired him could look worse. 

The "guy" that promoted the current manager from Locomotive Engineer out of the Denver Pool, has long since retired and his job/title was abolished (E-VP of Governmental Affairs, also responsibility over the steam and executive passenger cars). The steam and executive cars were then "moved" to reporting to the VP of Personnel.

I'm not sure I buy this line of thought for the "guy" or the lawsuit.

Would someone please correct and explain to me if I'm wrong. Is this not a 'MODEL TRAIN FORUM/WEBSITE'?  Puuuuuuulese people!

JimRK posted:

Would someone please correct and explain to me if I'm wrong. Is this not a 'MODEL TRAIN FORUM'? Puuuuuuulese people!

This is the REAL TRAINS sub-forum, where prototype train matters are open for discussion.

Rusty

Discussion? Well maybe by definition, but it's degenerating into a sad comedy IMHO, and right or wrong it is my opinion just as everyone else who has posted. Thank you, no offence implied.

JimRK posted:

Discussion? 

Yeah, this is the "Ameri-Builds" "Cock & Bull Tavern". Enter at your own risk!

JimRK posted:

Would someone please correct and explain to me if I'm wrong. Is this not a 'MODEL TRAIN FORUM/WEBSITE'?  Puuuuuuulese people!

 

yes ,you are wrong, this is the "real trains" forum.....-Jim

So the "guy" maybe long gone but someone is responsible for this division I would imagine so again what are these folks smoking if all this bad stuff is happening and this gentleman is still there. Seems lo,e a bad way to run a company. 

MartyE posted:

So the "guy" maybe long gone but someone is responsible for this division I would imagine so again what are these folks smoking if all this bad stuff is happening and this gentleman is still there. Seems lo,e a bad way to run a company. 

In my opinion, you are making an assumption that UP is a well run company.

Maybe but they've been in business longer than most. It just boggles the mind that they would keep someone who is so much trouble. You can only fool someone so long. 3-4 years seems like a long time to have lawsuits, unrest, employee issues, and still work. Especially when he's costing you a lot of money. 

Seems to me the real problem is the guy or guys above Ed more than Ed. He can screw up all he wants but if the folks above him ignore or continue to let it happen then the problem is there and IMO are a bigger problem. If they let Ed continue to cause issues then who knows what else they let go that cost money to both the company and stock holders. 

MartyE posted:

Maybe but they've been in business longer than most. It just boggles the mind that they would keep someone who is so much trouble. You can only fool someone so long. 3-4 years seems like a long time to have lawsuits, unrest, employee issues, and still work. Especially when he's costing you a lot of money. 

Seems to me the real problem is the guy or guys above Ed more than Ed. He can screw up all he wants but if the folks above him ignore or continue to let it happen then the problem is there and IMO are a bigger problem. If they let Ed continue to cause issues then who knows what else they let go that cost money to both the company and stock holders. 

Some very good points. Maybe THOSE are some of the reasons the lady VP of Personnel, is not looking to good recently, and the lady Corporate Chief Counsel has also recently "departed".

But why is the steam program under the PERSONAL DEPT?  I really do not think that is a great idea!

That would be the "PERSONNEL" department, not the "PERSONAL" department.

you would think they set money aside, for this, so its not part of  overhead,  I for one want to see the monster, back on the rails,,,,

david1 posted:

You know I really don't care if they ever run again. I'm more worried about the UP as a whole is financially stable. 

The steam program is great but as a share holder if the program undermines profititbility then stop it. Too many people have been laid off to worry about a few steam engines. 

I can tell you that allot of share holders are not fans of the steam program and have lobbied to have it scrapped. 

if you are a share holder don't you get some kind of yearly report on expenses?

We have a saying at my job and it goes like this:

Management has the right to mismanage. 

OGR Webmaster posted:

That would be the "PERSONNEL" department, not the "PERSONAL" department.

Actually if you wants nit pic the actual job title is VP human resource

jethat posted:

OGR Webmaster posted:

That would be the "PERSONNEL" department, not the "PERSONAL" department.

Actually if you wants nit pic the actual job title is VP human resource

 

Still, when are steam engines a "Human Resource"?

They sound like they're alive.   

Plus, they can be as temperamental as human beings and are prone to be "fired."

Rusty