From the information on the Charles Ro. Supply company price guide pdf it shows that the buildings are BUILT TO ORDER with similar pricing to the locomotives. 

Andrew

Because they can!

So how much were the buildings before?  And John is right because they can.  Personally I like the barn but I'm not expecting to pay MSRP either.

Unless the catalog isn't correct, the buildings do not indicate "BTO".

Now thats what I call inflation! I hope that MTH keeps the tooling for the best railking engine ever made. Of course I am talking about the RS-1. Now if someone would do a custom run in Penn Central that would be awesome. Lionel......please stay away from the RS-1!

@MartyE posted:

So how much were the buildings before?  And John is right because they can.  Personally I like the barn but I'm not expecting to pay MSRP either.

Unless the catalog isn't correct, the buildings do not indicate "BTO".

The OP lists them in his post.

Rusty

@MartyE posted:

So how much were the buildings before?  And John is right because they can.  Personally I like the barn but I'm not expecting to pay MSRP either.

Unless the catalog isn't correct, the buildings do not indicate "BTO".

Updated my post with references to the most recent MTH catalog that they were shown in. (Wanted to post this before it got lost in the weeds of everyone posting about what they want)

Bryce

@Rusty Traque posted:

The OP lists them in his post.

Rusty

They weren't there originally.  That's why I asked. Thanks for updating Bryce.

Unfortunately everything is higher these days.  I'm sure this accounts for some of the increase and then factor in the "Lionel" adjustment.  Probably a 50/50 split.  I'm not sure why the passenger cars would not be kept in a 3 car pack as they were with MTH but it is what it is.  Again I don't pay MSRP and looking at RO's pricing the barn is coming in about $116.

We have just seen the effects of a  loss of competition.  Plus looking further into the catalog,  there are some hefty price increases for 20 -70 year old tooling.

I wish they had Amtrak scale genesis engines. Might just have to buy some used MTH PS2/PS3 Amtrak F40/Genesis engines from the crazies on ebay.

I have always been a Lionel fan but someone there has lost their mind. Even at street price this is crazy.

@third rail posted:

We have just seen the effects of a  loss of competition.  Plus looking further into the catalog,  there are some hefty price increases for 20 -70 year old tooling.

Bill, you are absolutely correct.

@MartyE posted:

Unfortunately everything is higher these days.  I'm sure this accounts for some of the increase and then factor in the "Lionel" adjustment.  Probably a 50/50 split.  I'm not sure why the passenger cars would not be kept in a 3 car pack as they were with MTH but it is what it is.  Again I don't pay MSRP and looking at RO's pricing the barn is coming in about $116.

Most of the prices I listed were only one or two years old. I don't think its a 50/50 split.

These are the prices adjusted for 2021 (Assuming my math is correct, please feel free to check my numbers):
MTH Barn Price Price (2019 RTR) - $79.95  -> ~$84.97
MTH Townhouse Price (2020 RTR) - $49.95,  -> ~$52.44
MTH 3-Story City Building Price (2020 RTR) - $79.95  -> ~$83.93
MTH Commercial Dealership Building Price (2011 RTR) - $59.95 ,  -> ~$72.40
MTH 64' Woodside 3-Car Set Price (2020 Vol 1) - $289.95, -> ~$304.39 (~$101.46 per car)
MTH CA-1 Caboose Price (2017 Vol 2) - $69.95, -> $77.53

Bryce

To state the obvious, for MTH, their old prices reflected sunk costs in the tooling that had already been amortized. For Lionel, their prices reflect the additional costs of paying MTH for the tooling,  and, perhaps even more important,  the dramatic increases in costs of materials and shipping that are occurring worldwide.  I think we will find that Atlas prices on MTH locos, when they start making them, as opposed to putting previously planned locos in Atlas boxes, will reflect these changes as well.  Not great news, but not exactly a surprise in the current climate. Not so much about competition as economic realities is my take.

At least some of us, who can't/won't pay those prices, can thank our lucky stars for the vast pre-owned market of all things O gauge trains!

@Oscale_Trains_Lover_ posted:

First let me say that I am glad to see that Lionel picked up some MTH models, especially the engines.

Now I understand that buying new models will cause an increase of price from the previous owner but this is almost ridiculous... Even when MTH announced they were closing, these buildings weren't going for this much on the popular action website.

Examples:
MTH Barn Price Price (2019 RTR) - $79.95, Lionel Barn Price Price - $149.99
MTH Townhouse Price (2020 RTR) - $49.95, Lionel Townhouse Price - $99.99
MTH 3-Story City Building Price (2020 RTR) - $79.95 - Lionel 3-Story City Building Price - $139.99
MTH Commercial Dealership Building Price (2011 RTR) - $59.95 , Lionel Commercial Dealership Building Price  - $149.99
MTH 64' Woodside 3-Car Set Price (2020 Vol 1) - $289.95, Lionel 64' Woodside 2-Car Set Price - $399.99



Please don't get me wrong, I am glad that they are being used and not left to rot in some warehouse but:
- Double the price of the buildings for LEDs?
- Double the price for the 64' woodsides (MTH had LEDs mounted in them in the '20 Vol 2 for $99.95 per car)

Since Lionel wants to refit the MTH engines with their command system, I can understand the extra costs associated with retrofitting. However, a new coat of paint and an orange box for old MTH models?  Holy smokes.

Bryce

Well I guess those guys on the other thread really were right - this really is a "game changer", LOL!  These prices certainly will keep me from playing the game. Unfortunately, that might be the real "game changer"

@trumpettrain posted:

At least some of us, who can't/won't pay those prices, can thank our lucky stars for the vast pre-owned market of all things O gauge trains!

Amen to that!

Double your pleasure, double your fun,  let Lionel Lionel Lionel stun.

- Crank

I won't argue your math but what I do know is I am paying a lot more for things this year than last or even pre-pandemic that have absolutely noting to do with trains.  It's amazing how much things have gone up in cost.

Bryce thanks for starting this thread.  It is interesting.

@Oscale_Trains_Lover_ posted:

Amen to that!

On the bright side, Bryce for those of us who own many of these MTH Items already, we've just seen the paper value of our trains/accessories skyrocket as much as the S&P 500 in the past year thanks to Lionel. I guess you really can make money "investing" in trains. Yeah, that's the ticket.  I Can't wait to try this logic out on my wife. I'll just show her a few receipts for some recently purchased (within the last 3 years) MTH buildings and how the new Lionel catalog has them almost doubling in price. She'll think I'm a financial genius!  Yeah, that's the ticket!   This is a game changer! LOL!

First and foremost: inflation. Buckle up for a year or two. I'll say no more.

Second: probably a loss of competition.

But that's a heck of a hike in any direction you slice it. I wonder if Lionel's producer on the other side of the pond are more expensive than MTH's resources. I never ran a business but it seems bad practice to jack prices up so much, so quickly. Guess we'll have to hone those scratch building skills!!

@MartyE posted:

I won't argue your math but what I do know is I am paying a lot more for things this year than last or even pre-pandemic that have absolutely noting to do with trains.  It's amazing how much things have gone up in cost.

Bryce thanks for starting this thread.  It is interesting.

Marty, very good point as well

In the business I used to be involved with in another lifetime (medical device)as an owner, I keep up with the various goings on.  Almost all of the labs have sent notices to their clients (doctors/dentists) that base prices for their products and services will be going up substantially on August 15.   That is the date some of the raw materials will be going up due to severe shortages, higher production costs, and so forth.  Some of the materials are going up as much as 45% to 50%

These increases, of course, are passed directly to the labs customers.

@Landsteiner posted:

To state the obvious, for MTH, their old prices reflected sunk costs in the tooling that had already been amortized. For Lionel, their prices reflect the additional costs of paying MTH for the tooling,  and, perhaps even more important,  the dramatic increases in costs of materials and shipping that are occurring worldwide.  I think we will find that Atlas prices on MTH locos, when they start making them, as opposed to putting previously planned locos in Atlas boxes, will reflect these changes as well.  Not great news, but not exactly a surprise in the current climate. Not so much about competition as economic realities is my take.

I won't argue about material costs, had to extend a retaining wall and that cost surprised me.

The issue is the O-gauge market is accustomed to the msrp set by MTH for these products for the past ~20 years. Personally, I do not want to pay double the price for basically the exact same product. I can understand 140-160% the original value since Lionel has to get back the initial costs of purchasing the tooling.

I would be very eager to see if Lionel could show us how they priced these out

I remember a few years back, a guy told me $99 for a caboose, that's crazy. Then started the steamers $1600-$1700. Well now some people think, with all the features $1900 is not bad. Not me brother. God bless you if you can. Dave

@Dave Nichols posted:

I remember a few years back, a guy told me $99 for a caboose, that's crazy. Then started the steamers $1600-$1700. Well now some people think, with all the features $1900 is not bad. Not me brother. God bless you if you can. Dave

I remember when folks were squawking about paying $250 for what was a revived Postwar 2046 back in the MPC days...

And Athearn now has $109 cabooses in HO in their Genesis lineup.

Rusty

Remember the golden rule children, the one with the gold makes the rules,…

Pat

@Strap Hanger posted:

On the bright side, Bryce for those of us who own many of these MTH Items already, we've just seen the paper value of our trains/accessories skyrocket as much as the S&P 500 in the past year thanks to Lionel. I guess you really can make money "investing" in trains. Yeah, that's the ticket.  I Can't wait to try this logic out on my wife. I'll just show her a few receipts for some recently purchased (within the last 3 years) MTH buildings and how the new Lionel catalog has them almost doubling in price. She'll think I'm a financial genius!  Yeah, that's the ticket!   This is a game changer! LOL!

Please let me know how that works out for you

@BillYo414 posted:

Guess we'll have to hone those scratch building skills!!

Believe me, you don't want to see my scratch building skills, it looks like impressionist art haha!

@harmonyards posted:

Remember the golden rule children, the one with the gold makes the rules,…

Pat

As a child, the golden rule I was taught was: "He who has the gold, rules."

Bryce

@Oscale_Trains_Lover_ posted:

I would be very eager to see if Lionel could show us how they priced these out

Yeah, that's not going to happen.   Lionel is not going to open its books to show us the details of their business dealings.  The entities that hold the financial stakes in Lionel are both private companies.  

@EscapeRocks posted:

Yeah, that's not going to happen.   Lionel is not going to open its books to show us the details of their business dealings.  The entities that hold the financial stakes in Lionel are both private companies. 

It never hurts to ask David, since they are private entities I doubt it will happen

Bryce

Inflation plain and simple.  This is the first year in forty I am not planning on buying anything new train related other than paint, decals and detailing parts.  What I would usually spend on trains I now need for the pending increases in food, fuel, heating and utility costs.  My salary increased 2% last year while inflation for most things has now topped 6% and continues to climb.  I feel like I am back in 1978 all over again. 

@Oscale_Trains_Lover_ posted:

Believe me, you don't want to see my scratch building skills, it looks like impressionist art haha!

Could be the new style! You could start a revolution in scratch building where all buildings are modelled as the aftermath of a natural disaster. I know you won't let us down haha

Just think of how much it will cost to put multiple buildings on a layout at these prices.

MELGAR

Mr Muffins pre order prices are up.  360.00 for the woodsided passenger cars. 1710 for the hybrid strasburg engines, and 675 for the 2-8-0

I rarely buy Lionel because of the cost. That's why I am such a big Menards fan and now they are making engines too!!!!!!

From what has already been said, I gather that the deal Lionel made with MTH, so far, is for the modern buildings and structures, a 2 car set of passenger cars, and no locomotives yet. Do you agree?

I never got into modern buildings and structures, but doesn't Menards make good ones for reasonable prices?

Arnold

Vote with your wallet

MTH caboose I have, and the "NEW" Lionel version price comparison. 5 years later, double the price.

*groans* Don't forget also that Canadians usually have to pay 30%ish more on top of that price (in CAD to USD). Sometimes its less than 30% more but with taxes and shipping.... (ie $400 USD woodsided passenger cars = $530ish CAD + tax + shipping)

@BillYo414 posted:

Could be the new style! You could start a revolution in scratch building where all buildings are modelled as the aftermath of a natural disaster. I know you won't let us down haha

Great idea! Anyone interested in buying my scratch built Yankee Stadium and Polo Grounds for$1,000 each?

If you are interested, you better act now because Lionel will buy them from me and then charge you $2,000 each.

LOL, Arnold

@BillYo414 posted:

Could be the new style! You could start a revolution in scratch building where all buildings are modelled as the aftermath of a natural disaster. I know you won't let us down haha

Just you watch, since you said that, Lionel will come out with a FEMA RTR train set

@MELGAR posted:

Just think of how much it will cost to put multiple buildings on a layout at these prices.

MELGAR

Indeed. It seems to me like there will be an increase of Ameri-Towne sales, great bang for your buck!


Bryce

@Arnold D. Cribari  you're killin' me haha but I do love that stadium. And the mills I'm basing my model on DID have company baseball teams

@Oscale_Trains_Lover_haha!! They just might. Maybe they'll continue the theme from the military set right on down through National Guard and onto FEMA!