Engine operates on MTH transformers, but differently on Lionel transformers

I believe most PS1 locos will not work reliably with the Lionel Powermaster.  I've been told it's because QSI electronics don't like the non-sine wave forms put out by many solid state transformers like the Powermaster/Powerhouse combo.  The same was largely true of PS2 I believe. However, MTH made a big deal out of how PS1 should work well with postwar/sine wave generating transformers, of which, of course, the KW is one.  So I'm guessing the problem is the rebuilt KW.  If you have or have access to a postwar ZW, might be worth trying with that voltage source.

Hi and thanks for your reply.  Is there a difference between the voltage wave outputs for the KW versus the ZW?  I always thought the difference between the two was simply power (watts) output.  I wanted to keep the KW because it was the trfs that my father bought for me.  It seems though, most O gauge hobbyists use the ZW and update - modernize it.   Does the MTH Z4000 have a different wave output?

I use a KW for power and PS-1's work fine.

PS-1 locos need to start up at 10V, not 18 like PS2/3's.

Here's a PS 1 manual. read pp 4-5

Bob

I have MTH PS1s that don't start with a Z4000 but work fine with a ZW.

@Landsteiner does the Z4000 fall in the same category as the powerhouse?

"@Landsteiner does the Z4000 fall in the same category as the powerhouse?"

MTH claims the Z4000 is a sine wave transformer, although it differs in technology from the postwar and similar devices in how the sine wave is generated.  I believe the Powerhouse produces a more "chopped" sine wave and this variation causes problems with some PS1/PS2 locos.  I know I had a PS1 loco that was quite unhappy with the chopped sine wave MW solid state transformer Lionel used to make.  There's a lot of variability.  I know there were some PS1 locos that didn't like some MTH transformers for whatever reason.  I haven't heard of postwar transformers (1033, KW, ZW, etc.) causing problems with PS1 or PS2 locos in conventional mode.

"Is there a difference between the voltage wave outputs for the KW versus the ZW? "

Not to my knowledge. Both standard old fashioned sine wave transformers.  However, since you rebuilt the KW, perhaps the component(s) used did something funky to the output that your PS1 loco doesn't like?  I only mentioned the ZW because they are widely available. If you've got another postwar type AC transformer like the 1033, that should work well with PS1 too.

@Landsteiner posted:

"@Landsteiner does the Z4000 fall in the same category as the powerhouse?"

MTH claims the Z4000 is a sine wave transformer, although it differs in technology from the postwar and similar devices in how the sine wave is generated.  I believe the Powerhouse produces a more "chopped" sine wave and this variation causes problems with some PS1/PS2 locos.  I know I had a PS1 loco that was quite unhappy with the chopped sine wave MW solid state transformer Lionel used to make.  There's a lot of variability.  I know there were some PS1 locos that didn't like some MTH transformers for whatever reason.  I haven't heard of postwar transformers (1033, KW, ZW, etc.) causing problems with PS1 or PS2 locos in conventional mode.

"Is there a difference between the voltage wave outputs for the KW versus the ZW? "

Not to my knowledge. Both standard old fashioned sine wave transformers.  However, since you rebuilt the KW, perhaps the component(s) used did something funky to the output that your PS1 loco doesn't like?  I only mentnioned the ZW because they are widely available. If you've got another postwar type AC transformer like the 1033, that should work well with PS1 too.

Thanks for the explanations. I'm currently thinking about replacing my Z4000 with a spare ZW; or installing a knife switch to change which transformer powers the main. I currently have the Z4000 running two main outer loops through a TIU; and a ZW running an inner loop; plus another terminal on the TIU for a subway line. The knife switch would control whether power was coming off the TIU or the existing ZW. The ZW power would only be used for PS1s.

To RSJB18 - Thanks very much for that MTH manual.  I'll certainly try their instructions.  I thought I was the only one who was having issues with the MTH protosound 1 boards and a post war Lionel trfs.  Thanks to Bob (pennsyfan) for your note about the Z4000.  Saved me a few $ for not rushing out and buying one.  I have a friend back north who has a ZW and will borrow it and try my Alco Protosound 1 engine with it.  Thanks again for all of you that gave me some very useful help.    Bob

@Corvette Rob - Kudos to RSJB18 for providing a link to an MTH Owner’s Manual and if you haven’t read it already, also see the last part of the Introductory Paragraph on page 33 of the Manual vis-a-vis Lionel’s Trainmaster System.

The old Lionel TPC300 and TPC400 throttles made PS1 happy - they put out the proper waveform; the early Powermasters did not . I have both a TPC400 and an early Powermaster, left over from my old conventional days. The TPC's were cancelled long ago (mine still works); I do not know if the later "Legacy Powermaster" makes PS1 happy.

@D500 posted:

The old Lionel TPC300 and TPC400 throttles made PS1 happy - they put out the proper waveform; the early Powermasters did not . I have both a TPC400 and an early Powermaster, left over from my old conventional days. The TPC's were cancelled long ago (mine still works); I do not know if the later "Legacy Powermaster" makes PS1 happy.

I've played with all the permutations with my PS1 engines. Most of us are aware that PS-1's can be notoriously finicky to get moving, even when using MTH transformers.  As @D500 indicates the TPC 300 and 400 PowerMasters work quite well, considering they're made by MTH's competition-- but in my experience only as long as they also have the latest software.

This is the software that you'd find in the Lionel versions of these two devices.  Recall that IC Controls, the original manufacturer, sold the initial design to Lionel who marketed modified versions under the Lionel brand afterward (6-14189 for example).

Remember that PS-1's do not follow the typical power up of most conventional 'O' gauge locomotives.  Instead of 'NEUTRAL'-'FORWARD'-'NEUTRAL'-'REVERSE'-'NEUTRAL'-'FORWARD'-etc. as power is cycled, they follow 'RESET'-'FORWARD'-'NEUTRAL'-'REVERSE'-'NEUTRAL'-'FORWARD'-etc. The Lionel versions of the TPC's have extra functions that are designed to get PS1's into and out of their initial 'RESET' states more successfully.  They show up in the TPC owner's manual as a set of extra key pushes that are optimized for PS-1 start-up.

Of all of the transformers that I've tried, and the throttle movements with them including application of voltage levels and timings of same, these special button pushes in the TPC PowerMasters work the very best, by far-- even better than using native MTH transformers.

Some of us were quite lucky at one time to have Lou Kovach, founder of IC Controls, update the software in our pre-Lionel versions to the level which Lionel used in its versions, with excellent results.

If you want to ensure success with PS-1's go with the TPC's, whether from IC Controls or Lionel, fitted with this latest software.

Mike

@Corvette Rob posted:

I wanted to keep the KW because it was the trfs that my father bought for me.  It seems though, most O gauge hobbyists use the ZW and modernize it.   

"trfs?"    Did you just make that up?

@RadioRon posted:

"trfs?"    Did you just make that up?

It’s not a correct abbreviation for “transformer” that’s for sure.

@Rich Melvin posted:

It’s not a correct abbreviation for “transformer” that’s for sure.

Took me a little while to decipher too....😎😎

@Corvette Rob posted:

To RSJB18 - Thanks very much for that MTH manual.  I'll certainly try their instructions.  I thought I was the only one who was having issues with the MTH protosound 1 boards and a post war Lionel trfs.  Thanks to Bob (pennsyfan) for your note about the Z4000.  Saved me a few $ for not rushing out and buying one.  I have a friend back north who has a ZW and will borrow it and try my Alco Protosound 1 engine with it.  Thanks again for all of you that gave me some very useful help.    Bob

I learned the hard way too so happy to share.

Just don't tell my wife is read instructions....😂😂