John,
I think that I can actually use this without messing up to badly. Please put me down for four or five if you have enough.
John:
Great product! I may buy one to use a spare for my 40-year 12-volt AC DPDT relays now in use for the last 20 years on their 3rd layout.
But following up on my comment from a few weeks ago, assuming that you're going to provide a copy of the schematic with each sale, I think it would be helpful to change the nomenclature on the J1 #5 terminal to not say “center rail” for those that run in conventional mode.
I run both command and conventional but some of the conventional-only runners may not understand that it should not be connected to such a variable-voltage source as the center rail of a conventional layout.
Bill
Great thread.....always up for new stuff ...keep me posted for a couple units..thanks
Looks great John. I'd like some of them -- maybe 10.
Gerry
WftTrains posted:I run both command and conventional but some of the conventional-only runners may not understand that it should not be connected to such a variable-voltage source as the center rail of a conventional layout.
Valid point, I can certainly cover that in the instruction sheet as well.
John:
gunrunnerjohn posted:That's the goal. I have all the parts except for the terminal strip, I'm using the Euro style terminal blocks. In order to keep the price of parts reasonable, I ordered a bunch of these from China, they're not here yet. All the other parts are in. I want to get the terminal blocks and verify fit for sure before I order 100 or more boards,it would really bum me out to have another fiasco like the WD Generator issue where I had to scrap the first batch of boards because I was in a hurry to get them.
John:
Take your time and avoid the stress of "fiascos". All of us are currently operating without these boards so we can all wait a little longer.
That said, when all the parts are finalized, if these units are still in the ballpark of $10 -- and they help to avoid chattering -- you can sign me up for 5 to start.
If you need help writing an installation manual that can be followed by most users, I'd be happy to volunteer to proofread whatever you come up with. I wouldn't know a "CL2" if it walked up and handed me a grilled cheese sandwich, but I do know how to write procedures that anyone can follow...
Thanks for taking the initiative on this.
Steven J. Serenska
This looks great John. Count me in for six.
I'm currently using AC ice cube relays and bases and would gladly move to your solution.
Mike
So if I understand the device correctly, will it operate trackside accessories like a crossing gate, etc. ? I run strictly conventional. I use an insulated outside rail to operate such accessories.
Dan Padova posted:So if I understand the device correctly, will it operate trackside accessories like a crossing gate, etc. ? I run strictly conventional. I use an insulated outside rail to operate such accessories.
Great minds, Dan, as I just saw this thread and your post anticipated my question.
Same for me. PW style layout with gateman, switch tower, & the usual signals (block, semaphore, etc.) all activated by insulated track sections. They work OK but the action can be balky at times. Also lots of rail sparking.
So wondering if these devices would be suitable for that purpose.
johnstrains posted:Dan Padova posted:So if I understand the device correctly, will it operate trackside accessories like a crossing gate, etc. ? I run strictly conventional. I use an insulated outside rail to operate such accessories.
Great minds, Dan, as I just saw this thread and your post anticipated my question.
Same for me. PW style layout with gateman, switch tower, & the usual signals (block, semaphore, etc.) all activated by insulated track sections. They work OK but the action can be balky at times. Also lots of rail sparking.
So wondering if these devices would be suitable for that purpose.
Judging from the first post in this thread that is the designer's (GRJ) intended purpose for this device. I made a similar one from an article in CTT, parts from now mostly defunct Radio Shack. Works well but it's kinda bulky and not as sophisticated as John's version (no choke, no inrush protection). I'm hoping a kit will be made available, I could use a few more.
Pete
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Dan Padova posted:So if I understand the device correctly, will it operate trackside accessories like a crossing gate, etc. ? I run strictly conventional. I use an insulated outside rail to operate such accessories.
Yep, that's the intended audience. It will provide bounce-free activation of anything triggered by the insulated rail. It will be powered by the track or by an aux power supply, your choice. For command, it's obviously easy to power it with track power, for conventional, you will likely want to use an aux fixed supply.
A key design target is to minimize the arcing at the wheels when activating the attached accessories.
John, I assume it can take 22 VAC input. Will it be spark suppressed to handle old Lionel solenoid-operated accessories?
If so,I'll take 6.
Spark suppressed? The relay handles the load, what kind of suppression are you looking for? You won't see any sparks. 
gunrunnerjohn posted:Dan Padova posted:So if I understand the device correctly, will it operate trackside accessories like a crossing gate, etc. ? I run strictly conventional. I use an insulated outside rail to operate such accessories.
Yep, that's the intended audience. It will provide bounce-free activation of anything triggered by the insulated rail. It will be powered by the track or by an aux power supply, your choice. For command, it's obviously easy to power it with track power, for conventional, you will likely want to use an aux fixed supply.
A key design target is to minimize the arcing at the wheels when activating the attached accessories.
It looks like I've misunderstood the purpose.
I know yours works with an insulated rail, but to put this in Lionel contactor terms, it seems like your device would be a substitute for a 145C contactor where the passing train completes a circuit (e.g., to activate a gateman). This would be versus a 153C contactor where the passing train either interrupts a circuit and/or diverts the current from one circuit to another (e.g., from the green bulb to the red bulb on a 153 signal).
Or am I completely misunderstanding and your device can do both?
Please advise.
Thanks.
Steven J. Serenska
gunrunnerjohn posted:WftTrains posted:I run both command and conventional but some of the conventional-only runners may not understand that it should not be connected to such a variable-voltage source as the center rail of a conventional layout.
Valid point, I can certainly cover that in the instruction sheet as well.
Well, as long as you didn't choke on the regulator idea.....
I didn't work the math all the way through, but if you were to use a 6 volt relay and 6 volt regulator, or a 5 volt pair, you would have a truly universal design that would work on 6 - 24 vac, both conventional and command. You would need to go bigger than a TO-92 regulator to handle the dissipation at the higher end of the voltage range. I would expect a TO-220 package would handle it without a heatsink, you need about 1 W rating for continuous operation of a 6 volt 180 ohm relay with 24 VAC in.
Just sayin'
Well, one of the reasons I stuck with this design was that I could get the relays really cheap, I couldn't fine a similar 5V relay at anything like the same price. However, the point is well taken, perhaps I can change the regulator package and then see if I can round up the 5V relay at a later time.
I would take at least 4 of these! Kit or assembled, either way is fine. Just in case I haven't said that already, I don't want to miss the boat with all the requests coming on so quickly.
Also, no hurry on my account either as other have said, I can wait until you are ready at your leisure. I know you have a lot of other things to do too.
Serenska posted:It looks like I've misunderstood the purpose.
I know yours works with an insulated rail, but to put this in Lionel contactor terms, it seems like your device would be a substitute for a 145C contactor where the passing train completes a circuit (e.g., to activate a gateman). This would be versus a 153C contactor where the passing train either interrupts a circuit and/or diverts the current from one circuit to another (e.g., from the green bulb to the red bulb on a 153 signal).
Or am I completely misunderstanding and your device can do both?
It will certainly replace the 153C contactor, it has both a normally-open and normally-closed set of contacts. In point of fact, there is actually another set of contact on the board to a second header so you get even more functionality. Also, there is a jumper option to allow you to apply either power or ground to the center common contact, or you can isolate it and connect your own. It more than replaces the 153C.
PLCProf posted:Well, as long as you didn't choke on the regulator idea.....
I didn't work the math all the way through, but if you were to use a 6 volt relay and 6 volt regulator, or a 5 volt pair, you would have a truly universal design that would work on 6 - 24 vac, both conventional and command. You would need to go bigger than a TO-92 regulator to handle the dissipation at the higher end of the voltage range. I would expect a TO-220 package would handle it without a heatsink, you need about 1 W rating for continuous operation of a 6 volt 180 ohm relay with 24 VAC in.
How does this look? I took it a step farther. Since I already have the components for the first run, I left the TO-92 regulator in place, but I put a TO220 regulator in parallel with it. I can use either one, so if I find the 5V relays, I can drop them in, all other functionality remains the same. The only thing that changes is the regulator and the rating on the relay coil.
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gunrunnerjohn posted:Dan Padova posted:So if I understand the device correctly, will it operate trackside accessories like a crossing gate, etc. ? I run strictly conventional. I use an insulated outside rail to operate such accessories.
Yep, that's the intended audience. It will provide bounce-free activation of anything triggered by the insulated rail. It will be powered by the track or by an aux power supply, your choice. For command, it's obviously easy to power it with track power, for conventional, you will likely want to use an aux fixed supply.
A key design target is to minimize the arcing at the wheels when activating the attached accessories.
Thanks John. It sounds like something I can definitely put to work. By the way, your signature mentions Hennings. Will you be selling these through them or directly ?
It will certainly replace the 153C contactor, it has both a normally-open and normally-closed set of contacts. In point of fact, there is actually another set of contact on the board to a second header so you get even more functionality. Also, there is a jumper option to allow you to apply either power or ground to the center common contact, or you can isolate it and connect your own. It more than replaces the 153C.
John:
Thanks. All understood. The way people were talking about using it to run gatemen, semaphores, and gates, I got confused.
Using this for block control (like a 153C or an insulated rail connected to a chatter-y old fashioned relay) is what I'm after. I'll take 5 whenever you finalize the design and production. Like RTR12, there's no rush on my part. Please take the time to get it right at a pace that's enjoyable for you.
Thanks for doing this.
Steven J. Serenska
gunrunnerjohn posted:Serenska posted:It looks like I've misunderstood the purpose.
I know yours works with an insulated rail, but to put this in Lionel contactor terms, it seems like your device would be a substitute for a 145C contactor where the passing train completes a circuit (e.g., to activate a gateman). This would be versus a 153C contactor where the passing train either interrupts a circuit and/or diverts the current from one circuit to another (e.g., from the green bulb to the red bulb on a 153 signal).
Or am I completely misunderstanding and your device can do both?
It will certainly replace the 153C contactor, it has both a normally-open and normally-closed set of contacts. In point of fact, there is actually another set of contact on the board to a second header so you get even more functionality. Also, there is a jumper option to allow you to apply either power or ground to the center common contact, or you can isolate it and connect your own. It more than replaces the 153C.
PLCProf posted:Well, as long as you didn't choke on the regulator idea.....
I didn't work the math all the way through, but if you were to use a 6 volt relay and 6 volt regulator, or a 5 volt pair, you would have a truly universal design that would work on 6 - 24 vac, both conventional and command. You would need to go bigger than a TO-92 regulator to handle the dissipation at the higher end of the voltage range. I would expect a TO-220 package would handle it without a heatsink, you need about 1 W rating for continuous operation of a 6 volt 180 ohm relay with 24 VAC in.
How does this look? I took it a step farther. Since I already have the components for the first run, I left the TO-92 regulator in place, but I put a TO220 regulator in parallel with it. I can use either one, so if I find the 5V relays, I can drop them in, all other functionality remains the same. The only thing that changes is the regulator and the rating on the relay coil.
Looks good, but I found an envelope with a clean back, so I did some more figuring.
Because the load current on the regulator is fixed, we can cheat a little. Keep the 6 volt TO-92, but shunt it with a 910 ohm 1 watt resistor.
6 volt 180 ohm coil draws 33 mA. Because the voltage is fixed the current is fixed.
Let's say the DC supply is worst case 36 VDC, the voltage across the regulator and resistor will be 30 volts, but 30/910 = about 32 mA, so the resistor will handle almost all the current, the regulator will do nothing, hence, no dissipation. Resistor will dissipate about 1 watt
At say 24 VDC, the drop across the regulator and resistor will be 18 VDC, so the resistor will pass about 20 ma, the regulator will make up the 13 mA difference and dissipate about 230 mW.
Worst case will be at 21 VDC, the regulator dissipation will be about 250 mW at that point.
This all assumes that resistors are less expensive than regulators.
Or so the henscratch sez.....
What I was thinking of GRJ, was the point-eating large sparks that are generated when breaking a circuit involving old '40s & 50s Lionel solenoid devices
Not to hijack the thread but it is relevant to some of the discussion above.
Anybody know how to properly activate a 153 block signal using an insulated track section? I have it set up on my layout (Lionel PW tin track style) and it works -- sort of. I have green light on and when train crosses into insulated track section the red light comes on but green stays on. I know only one light is supposed to be on at a time.
I refuse to use those pesky contactors and would like it to work with insulated track.
Of course, GRJ's product could make it all moot!
Johnstrains. You have to have a SPDT relay, to open the green light circuit and close the red. An insulated track will operate a 151 semaphore without a relay, but it might affect a command signal since the solenoid coil is tied into the outside rail.
Thanks, RJR. I had a feeling I might need a relay. Played around with different connections to the three posts on the 153 but could never get it to work properly.
johnstrains posted:Thanks, RJR. I had a feeling I might need a relay. Played around with different connections to the three posts on the 153 but could never get it to work properly.
GRJ's product is the perfect solution for your application.
Bill
PLCProf posted:Looks good, but I found an envelope with a clean back, so I did some more figuring.
Because the load current on the regulator is fixed, we can cheat a little. Keep the 6 volt TO-92, but shunt it with a 910 ohm 1 watt resistor.
6 volt 180 ohm coil draws 33 mA. Because the voltage is fixed the current is fixed.
Let's say the DC supply is worst case 36 VDC, the voltage across the regulator and resistor will be 30 volts, but 30/910 = about 32 mA, so the resistor will handle almost all the current, the regulator will do nothing, hence, no dissipation. Resistor will dissipate about 1 watt
At say 24 VDC, the drop across the regulator and resistor will be 18 VDC, so the resistor will pass about 20 ma, the regulator will make up the 13 mA difference and dissipate about 230 mW.
Worst case will be at 21 VDC, the regulator dissipation will be about 250 mW at that point.
This all assumes that resistors are less expensive than regulators.
Or so the henscratch sez.....
If the resistor dissipation is 1 watt, I'd want at least a 2 watt resistor. They're kinda large. Since I can probably find the TO220 part in the 15 cent range, it makes more sense to me to just do this the "clean" way and not have to balance the currents.
It's is an interesting thought, shunting some of the power does kinda' make sense. However, it appears that the TO220 package should be able to handle the 40ma at 30 volts without going into thermal shutdown, but it might be a bit "toasty". Perhaps going with a higher value resistor across it would make more sense, at lower voltage drops, I don't need tune it as fine as almost all the current. I'm thinking maybe provisioning for a 1W resistor and then see what makes sense at expected operating voltages. I'm thinking more along the lines of maybe 1500 ohms of shunt resistance, I don't have to dissipate all the current, just some of it.
Another point to consider is the resistor has to be large enough where if the input voltage is maybe 15 VDC from a low AC voltage of perhaps 10 volts, I don't want the regulator be totally out of the picture.
You know John, I don't understand a thing you just posted, but if it is going to make a simple guys life like mine easier, I want in for some also!
gunrunnerjohn posted:PLCProf posted:Looks good, but I found an envelope with a clean back, so I did some more figuring.
Because the load current on the regulator is fixed, we can cheat a little. Keep the 6 volt TO-92, but shunt it with a 910 ohm 1 watt resistor.
6 volt 180 ohm coil draws 33 mA. Because the voltage is fixed the current is fixed.
Let's say the DC supply is worst case 36 VDC, the voltage across the regulator and resistor will be 30 volts, but 30/910 = about 32 mA, so the resistor will handle almost all the current, the regulator will do nothing, hence, no dissipation. Resistor will dissipate about 1 watt
At say 24 VDC, the drop across the regulator and resistor will be 18 VDC, so the resistor will pass about 20 ma, the regulator will make up the 13 mA difference and dissipate about 230 mW.
Worst case will be at 21 VDC, the regulator dissipation will be about 250 mW at that point.
This all assumes that resistors are less expensive than regulators.
Or so the henscratch sez.....
If the resistor dissipation is 1 watt, I'd want at least a 2 watt resistor. They're kinda large. Since I can probably find the TO220 part in the 15 cent range, it makes more sense to me to just do this the "clean" way and not have to balance the currents.
It's is an interesting thought, shunting some of the power does kinda' make sense. However, it appears that the TO220 package should be able to handle the 40ma at 30 volts without going into thermal shutdown, but it might be a bit "toasty". Perhaps going with a higher value resistor across it would make more sense, at lower voltage drops, I don't need tune it as fine as almost all the current. I'm thinking maybe provisioning for a 1W resistor and then see what makes sense at expected operating voltages. I'm thinking more along the lines of maybe 1500 ohms of shunt resistance, I don't have to dissipate all the current, just some of it.
Another point to consider is the resistor has to be large enough where if the input voltage is maybe 15 VDC from a low AC voltage of perhaps 10 volts, I don't want the regulator be totally out of the picture.
Whatever - Just giving you some food for thought. I'm a theory guy, you and Stan are into the practicalities 
I sized the resistor so the "maximum" dissipation of the regulator was a minimum. At the end of the day, you need to dissipate the same power somewhere.
Another point to consider is the resistor has to be large enough where if the input voltage is maybe 15 VDC from a low AC voltage of perhaps 10 volts, I don't want the regulator be totally out of the picture.
The current through the resistor is proportional to the voltage drop across the regulator! As the supply voltage goes down, the regulator current goes up! Using my example, with an 8 volt supply, the regulator drops 2 volts, so the resistor current is about 2 mA and the regulator would handle 31. Counter intuitive, but that's the way the math works out!
Yep, I was thinking "backwards" with the resistor. I think I've settled on allowing for either regulator type, that should be flexible enough to cover most bases. If you really felt the need for a resistor, just poke it in the holes of the missing regulator, problem solved.
Hi John
I am sure I can use these at the club & home layout. For starters I will take 4.
Thanks,
Bob D
NJ-Hi railers
Here's some input, John, that might be helpful. Depotronics has been gone for some time. He had a lot of control boards that preceded train operation before all the electronics were placed in the locomotive/engines. This board was kind of a universal isolated rail board that could be altered for several track side accessories. I was able to match it to MTH crossing gates. You can see some of the alterations that could be done for flashers and other control.
Green is isolated rail section. Accessory and track common have to be the same. If using a relatively short isolated rail the axle spacing, front to back of the car can cause the gate to go up and down. Blue, yellow and white, match to the MTH crossing gate. Never replaced the 2 amp fuse.
Appears to be a 12 volt DC relay Most of the board a bridge rectifier??
mike g. posted:You know John, I don't understand a thing you just posted, but if it is going to make a simple guys life like mine easier, I want in for some also!
Well said Mike, my thoughts exactly!!
John,
I haven't had the opportunity to read the entire thread but from the little I have read I will take several of these. When will they be available? Will the relay handle the current of a twin coil switch machine at about 20 volts? I realize the device is not designed for this purpose but I thought I would ask.
Dave Drake posted:I haven't had the opportunity to read the entire thread but from the little I have read I will take several of these. When will they be available? Will the relay handle the current of a twin coil switch machine at about 20 volts? I realize the device is not designed for this purpose but I thought I would ask.
Dave, the relays are rated at 2A, they should handle most switch machines.
Mike CT posted:Here's some input, John, that might be helpful. Depotronics has been gone for some time. He had a lot of control boards that preceded train operation before all the electronics were placed in the locomotive/engines. This board was kind of a universal isolated rail board that could be altered for several track side accessories. I was able to match it to MTH crossing gates. You can see some of the alterations that could be done for flashers and other control.
Green is isolated rail section. Accessory and track common have to be the same. If using a relatively short isolated rail the axle spacing, front to back of the car can cause the gate to go up and down. Blue, yellow and white, match to the MTH crossing gate. Never replaced the 2 amp fuse.
Appears to be a 12 volt DC relay Most of the board a bridge rectifier??
There are a LOT of parts that aren't populated there, so I suspect there was a lot of documentation that accompanied that. Was it something you assembled, or did it come as an assembled board? If it was assembled, did they just have a bunch of different "products" that populated different sections of the board?
I have given some thought to a "deluxe" version with a variety of options, but of course that really runs up the cost and complexity. If I were to do something like that, it would be microprocessor based and I'd probably go with surface mount parts and likely a jumper field to select operating options. I'd also probably use a socketed PIC chip so that field updates wouldn't require sending the whole board back, similar to how I did the Super-Chuffer.
Every time I do some little project like this, I learn a lot that can be applied in the future. The primary purpose of talking about them here during development is to take advantage of all the great minds that contribute to the design.
gunrunnerjohn posted:Dave Drake posted:I haven't had the opportunity to read the entire thread but from the little I have read I will take several of these. When will they be available? Will the relay handle the current of a twin coil switch machine at about 20 volts? I realize the device is not designed for this purpose but I thought I would ask.
Dave, the relays are rated at 2A, they should handle most switch machines.
Mike CT posted:Here's some input, John, that might be helpful. Depotronics has been gone for some time. He had a lot of control boards that preceded train operation before all the electronics were placed in the locomotive/engines. This board was kind of a universal isolated rail board that could be altered for several track side accessories. I was able to match it to MTH crossing gates. You can see some of the alterations that could be done for flashers and other control.
Green is isolated rail section. Accessory and track common have to be the same. If using a relatively short isolated rail the axle spacing, front to back of the car can cause the gate to go up and down. Blue, yellow and white, match to the MTH crossing gate. Never replaced the 2 amp fuse.
Appears to be a 12 volt DC relay Most of the board a bridge rectifier??
There are a LOT of parts that aren't populated there, so I suspect there was a lot of documentation that accompanied that. Was it something you assembled, or did it come as an assembled board? Board was assembled and had a dedicated purpose, but there were other similar looking boards, at the time, with different purposes, that used the unpopulated openings.
If it was assembled, did they just have a bunch of different "products" that populated different sections of the board? Yes. Basic input all boards was an isolated rail section.
I have given some thought to a "deluxe" version with a variety of options, but of course that really runs up the cost and complexity. If I were to do something like that, it would be microprocessor based and I'd probably go with surface mount parts and likely a jumper field to select operating options. I'd also probably use a socketed PIC chip so that field updates wouldn't require sending the whole board back, similar to how I did the Super-Chuffer.
Every time I do some little project like this, I learn a lot that can be applied in the future. The primary purpose of talking about them here during development is to take advantage of all the great minds that contribute to the design.
Best wishes with your project,
Mike CT.
John, another question if I may. I have one of the MTH operating passenger stations. Can I use your device to operate it. This may have been covered in this thread, but I'm too tired at the moment to read back through it all.
Dan, I can't imagine why it wouldn't work fine in that application. 
Another day, another update. In a different discussion, it was discovered that an LED being powered from track power was enough to trigger a malfunction in the Hotbox Reefer due to introducing a small DC offset. Given that fact, I decided I better rethink my method of triggering the relay on this project! I decided to go to a bridge rectifier to eliminate imparting a DC bias on the tracks when the relay is energized. Also, since it's deemed that we need a TO220 for the 5V coil version (as soon as I get a good deal on relays), I figured I might as well bite the bullet and just make it standard. That way I can change the relay and regulator while still using the same PCB layout. I'll just have to eat the $7 I paid for the 200 LM78L12 regulators.
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John, I have to give you and people like you credit. That electronic stuff is intimidating to me at least. As many times as I have tried to grasp it and was given explanations, I still come away with my head spinning.
My knowledge of electricity is more in the practical aspect such as wiring a house. I used to ask the electricians on the job, what's so hard about your work. Only three things to know, black to black, white to white and payday is Friday.....LOL
