DS - I think this image of the instructions posted on this thread on 3/18, especially the diagram at the bottom, should give you the information on how to use this device.
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DS Texas posted:If there is a good explanation for how this "switch" should be used, please point me in the right direction. Hopefully, this is not a stupid question for all of you experienced train folks.
Remember, no stupid questions, only stupid answers. 
First off, as others have said, you need some insulated track sections for tubular track to trigger anything with this technique. In concept, this device simply closes a set of contacts and opens another set of contacts when the insulated rail section is occupied by a locomotive or rolling stock. When the insulated rail section is vacant again, the contacts revert back to their resting state. This is a basic diagram of a red & green signal with both the driver board and the signal driven by track power.
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Hi John - Was wondering will you be bringing any of these in kit form to the April York meet? I would be in line for a couple of them. Thanks
rtr12 posted:Just got a nice package in the mail this afternoon!! Everything looks great. Going to clean off the bench and start assembling maybe tomorrow.
You got the kit version, right? Are you willing to be the poster-child for how to use GRJ's module (kit version) to mate with a 99 cent (free shipping) relay module to provide 10 Amp contacts for block power control and/or high-current accessories?
I believe this can be done fairly easily...just running a few wires between the two modules. Or maybe it's obvious? Anyway, if there's any interest I will write it up...
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Stan, what is OPTO isolation?
Stan....I wondered how long it would take for someone to think of little relay triggering bigger one.
Richard
rrgeorge posted:Hi John - Was wondering will you be bringing any of these in kit form to the April York meet? I would be in line for a couple of them. Thanks
I probably won't have the kits, as I'm really putting them together on demand. I suspect we'll have the assembled units. If you want a couple of kits, the mailing is pretty cheap, and those I can supply. 
RJR posted:Stan, what is OPTO isolation?
stan2004 posted:rtr12 posted:Just got a nice package in the mail this afternoon!! Everything looks great. Going to clean off the bench and start assembling maybe tomorrow.
You got the kit version, right? Are you willing to be the poster-child for how to use GRJ's module (kit version) to mate with a 99 cent (free shipping) relay module to provide 10 Amp contacts for block power control and/or high-current accessories?
I believe this can be done fairly easily...just running a few wires between the two modules. Or maybe it's obvious? Anyway, if there's any interest I will write it up...
I got the kits, 8 of them. Very nice I might add!! And yes, I would be happy to do that. I just happen to have some of those 10 amp relays as well. And I think I even have some of the 12vdc as shown in your post.
It will be a day or two though. I started assembly, but didn't get finished. My wife didn't think I had enough to do so I now have a to-do list to finish first. I explained to her I was retired and wasn't supposed to have anything to do, she added to the list... 
I do think it would be something good to have posted for reference for those needing wiring assistance.
The crime is that you can't buy that bare relay for what you can buy the whole module for! I keep looking for sources of cheap bare relays...
Seems to me, GRJ, that you have been pretty successful in your Quest.
I remember back B.C.*, relays were more in the $20 range.
*B.C.= Before China
Yep, but I'd like to find a DPDT 10A relay, those are in short supply unless you want huge packages.
As I mentioned above, I am new to track layout planning. I think I understand how to use this Insulated Track Signal Driver with the No. 153 Block Signal Accessory which uses a green light (on with unoccupied insulated section) and a red light (on with occupied insulated section).
1. Would you hook these up to control the No 45N Gateman in a similar manner to the 153 along with the insulated track section? Can I assume the gateman is the same as the green light in the 153 since the 45N used the 153C contactor? Can I also assume the light in the building will go off similar to the red light on the 153?
2. Would you use these to control the No. 154 Crossing Signal? How do you make the lights blink alternately?
3. Which other accessories/lights have you used these with? How do you hook them up?
Thanks,
(Can I be a Newbie at my age?)
In the simplest form, you can run the Gateman right from the insulated track. One of the reasons you normally want to use a control like this is to minimize the current through the wheels and the resultant spark when you enter the insulated track section. This board draws a very low current and you don't see sparking at the wheels when triggering an accessory from the insulated track.
This won't blink the #154 Crossing Signal lights alternately, you would have to have a flashing circuit like the one below. To control it with the sensor board, you'd switch the power to the rectifier in the diagram below.
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GRJ, don't you have the labels crossed on the transformer?
Note that a single flasher unit such as GRJ shows can run all the 154's, or equivalent, on your layout, if you use LED bulbs (which are available for the 154). Simply run the wires labeled 2 & 3 all around your layout, each feeding one bulb of each crossing signal. Connect the ground/common wire to the NO terminals of GRJ's sensor at each location, and the relay center terminals back to the V+ on the diagram.
rtr12 posted:...I do think it would be something good to have posted for reference for those needing wiring assistance.
Again, this is for the few DIY diehards using the kit version. In other words, have soldering iron, will travel... The idea is you just can't buy a 10 Amp relay WITH screw-terminal connectors for less than the price of the assembled relay module with its mounting holes. Can't quite tell but looks like the two boards and even the mounting holes are similar so could make for a tidy and compact combo.
Here's one way of doing it.
a) Do Not Install diode D2 and relay K1.
b) Run a pair of wires from the K1 relay coil pads to the 10 Amp relay module DC+ and DC- screw terminals as shown.
c) Run a jumper from the DC- to IN screw terminals as shown.
d) Install the shorting plug to the "L" or Low trigger position as shown.
Note: The HK19 relay on the ITSD is a 200mW 12V coil. The SRD relay on the relay modules is a 450mW coil. As such, a larger capacitor at J2 is required to achieve the same release time.
Note: if you "know" to ask the question why not just leave the ITSD relay in-place and have it control the higher current relay (relay triggering a relay)...then I figure you already know the answer!
Edited Note: The ITSD 6-position screw-terminal is made of 3 x 2-position connectors. If using the 10 Amp external relay module you only need to install 1 of the 2-position connectors for "Center Rail" and adjacent "Sense Rail" terminals.
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The terminal strip is three 2-position parts, they lock together to form any size you like as long as you want an even number of terminals.
Stan,
Ok, I think I have it. I do have a 10 amp relay that looks just like your picture. even has the Hi-Lo jumper. I will get more assembled tonight, I think I have all my to-do's completed, sooner than I thought. I am not quite sure why you left D2 out though?
D2 is a snubber for the relay coil to damp out the kickback pulse from the coil when power is removed. If you're leaving out the relay, no reason to keep the diode.
I hope to purchase 4 this Friday when it's payday. I want to light up my MTH PRR signal bridges on parallel track.
Better hurry, I see they sold all but four of the 18 that I just dropped off yesterday! I'll have to package up some more of those.
Maybe I don't have the latest revision but why aren't you taking advantage of J3? Or do you not provide a shorting-plug for J3? Also in the example shown I don't think there's a need to attach anything to the GND screw-terminal?
This would make wiring a lot simpler!
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You're right Stan, I slapped those diagrams together pretty quickly.
gunrunnerjohn posted:You're right Stan, I slapped those diagrams together pretty quickly.
Haste is waste! 
RJR posted:GRJ, don't you have the labels crossed on the transformer?
Correct, it's not my diagram. Obviously, whoever created it didn't know their primary from their secondary.
I don't know how you handle all the emails and still get anything done, GRJ
Now you know why my upgrades take so much time! I have one I've been working on for two days, still not done. However, I've moved it aside on the bench to do three other little projects, but I have to get back at it today!
gunrunnerjohn posted:D2 is a snubber for the relay coil to damp out the kickback pulse from the coil when power is removed. If you're leaving out the resistor, no reason to keep the diode.
That is what I thought D2 was, but since Stan's drawing was still operating a relay coil with the Isolated Rail Sensor Board I was just curious as to why it was left out? I left the resistor in, but left out the diode and relay.
Stan,
I am finished with the assembly of all the boards including the test one. I was going to tell you it all tested out just fine, but I just reread your post above and I did the test slightly different than what I now think you were indicating. I printed out the post and will do some further testing tomorrow and get back to you with the updated info. I did use the jumper on J3.
Should have printed this out earlier instead of relying on my tired old memory...plus I slept between work sessions.
rtr12 posted:gunrunnerjohn posted:D2 is a snubber for the relay coil to damp out the kickback pulse from the coil when power is removed. If you're leaving out the resistor, no reason to keep the diode.
That is what I thought D2 was, but since Stan's drawing was still operating a relay coil with the Isolated Rail Sensor Board I was just curious as to why it was left out? I left the resistor in, but left out the diode and relay...
I think that was a simple typo - I believe he meant to say if you're leaving out the relay, no reason to keep the diode. You absolutely need the resistor (R1) for the board to do anything.
D2 is one of those splitting-hairs issues. IMO you don't need it at all but they cost a penny so who's to quibble. You must use a snubber when the relay quickly turns off such as when driven by a digital signal. This is because quickly interrupting the current in the relay coil (when on) creates a spike of voltage (aka flyback, inductive kick, etc.) that ought to be clamped/snubbed/dampened or whatever you want to call it. This spike can damage nearby components that "see" the spike. In the ITSD, the current in the relay coil does NOT turn off quickly because the capacitor in the circuit slowly bleeds off its voltage and the current in the relay coil meanders down to zero so there is no spike and hence no need to snub it.
OTOH, I was thinking about GRJ's build guideline to start first with the shorter components. It occurs to me you might have already installed D2 and what a nuisance to unsolder a component. Anyway, if you are in that situation you can leave D2 in place and no harm, no foul.
I figured that D2 was optional, but then I figured a 3 cent component, might as well add it for a tiny bit of insurance.
I edited my previous post, clearly, I meant to say relay!
Ok, I've got it now. I hadn't considered that being a typo, but I thought that was what the diode was doing with the spike protection. It all makes sense and I also now get the capacitor acting like the diode. Some of this is finally starting to stick.
The only thing I installed differently was all the terminal blocks. I was afraid they might be difficult to put together later on. Everything does work in the slimmed down version though, but I wired it differently for the test. I'll be back later with more details and a pic or two, after I get done goofing off here for a while. I need rest after all the to-do's this week.
Bummer! out of Stock again. I will have to monitor. I need a min of two for my Christmas Layout!
I have more to drop off, so they'll have more very soon.
Stan,
Ok, finally got some more testing done after reading your notes again just before the test. Everything works with the slimmed down version as you have it shown. The one thing I noticed is that it all worked no matter what position the jumper was in and also without the jumper. Here are some pictures.
The flicker in the video where the green comes back on for a flash was due to a dirty spot on the track. After I looked at it here I noticed the flicker and rechecked everything. Found and fixed the dirty spot, but didn't re-do the video. Sorry for the shaky hands, I can't find my little tripod.
Also, I haven't fiddled with the larger 2nd cap for adding any delay.
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The jumper is only a convenience thing, I probably should have left it out as it causes confusion. It's easy with one wire from a terminal to duplicate what the jumper does. The jumper just connects the power or ground to the common of the relay contacts, that eliminates having to wire if that's the configuration you'd like to use.
I can fiddle with it a little more, but it all works just fine. Except the jumper didn't seem to do much. I guess it could be my relay contact wiring too? It works just fine as is though. I added to my post above to say I hadn't yet fiddled with the 2nd cap for the delay either.
Also for Stan, I knew enough to ask about leaving the relay out, but I am not sure of your reason for doing that and just using the board relay to operate the external relay? Could you explain a little more on that subject?
gunrunnerjohn posted:The jumper is only a convenience thing, I probably should have left it out as it causes confusion. It's easy with one wire from a terminal to duplicate what the jumper does. The jumper just connects the power or ground to the common of the relay contacts, that eliminates having to wire if that's the configuration you'd like to use.
I think it's one of those time-will-tell cases. In your example drawing with the red-green signal there is tremendous benefit to having that jumper since you can wire up a signal without sharing screw-terminals...that is, only one wire per terminal. As you know, you can get squirrel-ly results when inserting multiple wires - especially of different sizes - into a screw-terminal connector.
I figure you are shipping units with the jumper attached "sideways" to the center pin of the 3-pin strip? I can imagine scenarios where the average user would not realize you have this option and then go ahead and externally wire up power or ground to the relay Common. If the on-board jumper is installed to one or the other, then you have a 50-50 chance that bad things will happen!
The jumper is not installed, that would be kinda' bad if it was jumpered on one of the options!
One of the benefits of the euro style connectors is they do take better to multiple wires. Standard barrier strips are pretty bad with multiple wires.
rtr12 posted:I can fiddle with it a little more, but it all works just fine. Except the jumper didn't seem to do much. I guess it could be my relay contact wiring too? It works just fine as is though. I added to my post above to say I hadn't yet fiddled with the 2nd cap for the delay either.
Also for Stan, I knew enough to ask about leaving the relay out, but I am not sure of your reason for doing that and just using the board relay to operate the external relay? Could you explain a little more on that subject?
This is/was exactly what I was interested in. To summarize, I'm suggesting a way for the handful of DIY-enthusiasts out there in OGR-land to adapt the ITSD for 10 Amp operation for block-power control or high-power multi-Amp accessories. Out-of-pocket cost about $1 for the eBay relay module. Gold star for documenting it!
As for the relay-triggering-a-relay issue. Here's my thinking. This is directed at the DIY-crowd...the guys willing to fire up the soldering iron and inhale flux vapors and such! So it's the guys buying the kit version so by not installing the relay and diode, you save time that can be applied to wiring up the external 10 Amp relay module. Plus, I don't have an assembled ITSD board in front of me but it might be a bother to find joints/terminals to pick off the signals to wire over to the external module. By not installing the relay, you have access to two pads at the edge of the board which make for an easy 2-wire connection to the eBay module; you also get a "with distinction" asterisk to your gold star for illustrating this simple connection using red/black wires which don't even have to criss-cross or whatever to mate the two boards!
Additionally, it's just wasteful to power up two relays. And if you do get around to experimenting with the delay-capacitor, note that the delay-capacitor must power up both relays which means yet more capacitance for the same time delay. To achieve time-delays similar to the 153IR or ITAD occupancy detectors (10 seconds or more), you will need quite a large capacitor...no need to make it yet larger with an extra relay!
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OK RTR, your starting to scare me, your reaching the area of Stan the man and GRJ!
Next thing you know everyone is going to be running to you for help and answers! But that's ok cause I have had the great experience of asking you 3 and a lot of others for help. So I can say I asked for help before you got famous!
Great work there!
