Looking at HO...Pros and Cons?

I've often thought the same thing but I am too heavily invested in O to go HO.

The only cons for HO that I can think of is:

#1) You have to be precise with your trackwork or you may have a lot of derailments. O gauge, especially 3 rail, is a lot more forgiving.

#2) HO is small. It's harder to see the details and it doesn't have the heft of O scale.

#3) Unless you are building a very small layout I no longer buy into the HO is cheaper argument unless you are going to buy used, cheap, equipment from many years ago. In today's world I think HO is about the same cost as O because with HO you will have the room for more locomotives and more rolling stock and the really nice detailed stuff is not cheap. There may be a small price savings with HO but it isn't a large enough amount that I would base my entire decision upon it.

I'm a big proponent of DCC but I have to be fair. I do not believe there are more functions with DCC then TMCC/Legacy or DCS. However, there are some things that DCC can do that the 3 rail systems can't and there are some things that the 3 rail systems can do that DCC can't. If you are talking solely about motor control then yes DCC has more functions and more ways to tweak motor performance.

ALL OPINION.

Good luck, Michael. I wish you the best.

One other thing I like to mention. Recently, I was invited to a friends HO layout. It's a layout in progress but it's coming along nicely. Anyway, the whole time I was there I kept looking at the trains and saying to myself, "Holy Cow! They look so small." Of course I didn't say anything to the owner. I guess it is like when you play baseball and you put a donut on your bat. The bat is heavier but then when you take it off the bat seems lighter but it really isn't. I guess I was so used to looking at O scale trains that my eyes just couldn't get used to looking at HO.  

Memorize:   Prototypical, fast clock, operating session, rivet (as in counting em)

Forget:   Run trains, toy, Polar Express

Thanks for the feedback! By the way, I did find a very nice track plan based on Sandpatch grade, the main route I would like to do. Looks like it would be easy to take apart and set up again too!

I personally believe that the sound quality on HO locomotives is poorer than on a comparative O gauge engine. This is definitely IMHO. I also believe that a con of HO is that a good HO engine costs almost as much as an engine in O scale. For example, an MTH SD70ACe in HO is about $299.95, while the Railking engine is about $319.95. Plus, you have to buy polarity reversers for reversing loops or similar, the equipment derails more readily, and is more delicate. 

On the plus side, you can fit more in a given area. 

If you have the time, money, space, and will to do two scales, the go for it. I'd still stick with O. 

pittsburghrailfan posted:

I personally believe that the sound quality on HO locomotives is poorer than on a comparative O gauge engine. This is definitely IMHO. I also believe that a con of HO is that a good HO engine costs almost as much as an engine in O scale. For example, an MTH SD70ACe in HO is about $299.95, while the Railking engine is about $319.95. Plus, you have to buy polarity reversers for reversing loops or similar, the equipment derails more readily, and is more delicate. 

On the plus side, you can fit more in a given area. 

If you have the time, money, space, and will to do two scales, the go for it. I'd still stick with O. 

When I mean sound, I mean accuracy of sound. Sure, sound quality is certainly better on O Scale, but I suggest pulling up a Youtube video and listen of a real ES44AC, an Intermountain HO ES44AC, and an MTH O ES44AC. Believe me, you will see what I'm talking about.  As for price, HO locomotives are expensive for their size. But  ~$300, you can buy a top of the line HO locomotive, while for the same price, sometimes more for steam, you buy a less-detailed, semi scale Railking locomotive. Again this all my opinion.

GVDobler posted:

Memorize:   Prototypical, fast clock, operating session, rivet (as in counting em)

Forget:   Run trains, toy, Polar Express

I would remind you that not every HO'er is a rivet counting, fast clock operating session operator.  There are plenty of "average Joe's" in HO.

I've also noticed a good amount of basic/generic stuff in photo's in Model Railroader.

Rusty

Just go there. There's No lack of available models in HO and some that you will Never see in O.  2nd hand market is excellent and DCC (non sound) decoders are less than $20 and are plug in installation.

Just look at this 15 year old beauty:

Pros for HO: It is scale. O is , well O gauge. For O gauge you have to muddle through scale, 027, 031, 042, 072, etc. 

HO is 2 rails. Two 2 rail for O is limited although very realistic. 

Pros for O: Price is comparable to HO. O gauge can be seen and is more impressive. O is easier to work on.  O is sturdier. 

BTW - I am an O gauger.

There are not as many operating accessories as there is in O gauge. Also harder to work on due to size.

I had O gauge for many years in my home and it was fairly large.  Although I still have O I decided to build a HO layout when I moved to a smaller place. I really love it, they run and sound great. I run all MTH locomotives so I can have the sound and smoke I like. They are well detailed and the sound is the best in Ho IMO. 

Pros:

More variety of equipment.    ie more models of more prototypes.

Easier to fit more into the available space.

Easier to acquire, much more availability at shows and hobby shops

More people model in this scale so it is easier to find a buddy to help with your specific problems if you have any.

Detail on newer stuff equals O scale

Generally prices are less than O scale, especially for components like track and couplers and details.    

Much more scenery supplies made.

Cons:

It is smaller.   The track is smaller and the equipment is lighter.    It requires more careful track laying.

All components are smaller and more fragile

Your 3-rail buddies might frown on it

Rusty

all in fun my friend. I can set up a pretty good temp RR in all but S. As my eyes get worse the scale gets bigger. Even looking at some 7.5" gauge 1/8 scale. But even they argue about 1.5 vs the more realistic 1.6. There is more stuff available in 1.5, so on it goes.

i like HO very much.

Btw I don't do operations ( it's like watching grass grow ). I run my Ho the same way I did my O gauge. I like nice scenery and that is my focus. Running my Ho steam and diesels engines thru the scenery I made is great. 

Running dcs rather then DCC is better in my opinion. Dcs is more intuitive IMO. 

I grew up pure Lionel, definitely anti- HO.

since then,  I met some wonderful HO operators who invited me to an operating session. With their help, I've seen and operated on several HO railroads. I am now an HO believer.

I now dabble in both HO and O 3 rail.

Cost: That's a no brainier. HO definitely is least costly.

As an example, I have an Atlas HO Gold series GP40 on pre-order, true scale dimension, DCC, realistic sound, $187

Compare that to my O gauge MTH GP40 pre-order from a MTH dealer is over $400.

99% of all my rolling stock (both HO & 3rail) is bought on the secondary market ( eBay and here on the forum), again, HO is a no brainer.

My HO CSX Coal Porters cost me about $10-$12 each(walthers Gold series)

Contrast that to my O gauge MTH CSX coal porters that are about $30-$40 each 

Walthers Shinohara code 83 switches are about half ( or less) than comparable Lionel Fastrack or MTH switches. Walthers offers a lot more choices in variety of switches than either Lionel or MTH. Ross Switches helps to even the variety available. Bachmann EZ track (with roadbed) is the HO equivelant of Fastrack.

Buildings?   Walthers HO Cornerstone Building kits offer an incredible variety.

Size?   HO is fine if you keep the height of your table up around 42" or more.

Operation?  I've seen issues in both HO and O gauge. Careful track work and proper wiring is required in both scales for trouble free operation.

Operating accessories: Clearly O gauge has the edge, no contest. Problem is that most O gauge accessories are not to scale. 

Operation: HO has a small edge with their Kadee couplers. With delay effect, switching is easy to do. If you're just a loop to loop guy then couplers don't matter.

I could go on and on but in the end, I'd suggest doing a bit of both. That will satisfy that "should I" craving.

i suggest that you look into connecting with some HO modelers who can help you. Visit as many railroads as you can, ask questions. 

In the meantime, enjoy!

Sound just does not cut it by comparison:   "Its all about da base, 'bout da base... no treble". (a recent pop song)

No feel of "presence" - these are tiny toys, even with scale fidelity.

You have to squint and close one eye, get up very close, to watch the trains go by.   Not much fun.

Fewer units have smoke, even fewer have smoke comparable to O.

I still have my my boyhood HO trains in a chest, not really tempted to get them out.

Consider Bachmann On30 trains, these are sweet, look good in small spaces, good value, and run sooo smooth.

All trains are good.   In addition to O and On30, I also have N operable layout, Z in my desk drawer, and G on the shelves.   No S yet, but I have been tempted.

Thanks for the replies! All points are helpful. As for operating accessories, I don't have too much of them in O scale so I don't really care too much about that. Same goes for smoke. I want to model the late 80's to modern CSX, which are run with diesels, which don't necessarily smoke like they do in O scale anyway...

I was in HO for many years. Great if you are following a prototype railroad. You can find niche items for certain railroads, lots of it. This is the down fall for O.

I moved from HO to O for the following reasons:

Track cleaning. Lots of it, the surface contact area for HO is much smaller so be prepared for the smaller electrical foot print.

stay away from plastic wheels - they attracted lots of dirt

Size matters when you get older. The frustration level grew working on the layout.

2 rail wiring is a little more difficult when it comes to return loops

Harder to build kits - due to the size.

Sounds are not as good.

Adding small electrical lights and details is allot harder and less seen on a smaller railroad.

Working with D.C. is a different animal as far as power supply.

Hard for kids to play with, with out damage

fewer animated accessories

The visitor Wow effect is greater.

The pro for HO:

You can fit allot in a small area.

You don't have to worry about the collect ability - prices and modifying certain pieces.

The box conundrum

Everything is available

building from scratch is somewhat easier and can be achieved with fewer details

HO is great when I was younger. I could achieve so much more on a shoe string budget and pick it up and move it....

But now I really enjoy my O.

Sounds like you'd prefer to stay in O-scale IF you had CSX engines and rolling stock.

I'd be looking to sell off what you have and concentrate on buying prototypical items in CSX livery and stay in O.

If I had known what I know now I would have only bought O-scale steam, and probably only 2-rail.  I converted all my 3-rail steamers to 2-rail (kept the hi-rail wheels and removed the center rollers, along with removing the center rail) and converted all 8 to battery-powered, remote-control.  I have 7 diesels I doubt I will do anything with, other than maybe give them to my 2 grandsons.  And if I could really go back in time I would only have bought the 4 Williams brass steam engines, two USRA 2-8-2s, 1 USRA 4-6-2, and 1 N&W J.

All my HO stuff is boxed up, doubt I'll ever do anything else with it.  All pieces are from the 1975-1990.  When I pick a car up it feels very tiny and fragile compared to anything I have in O-scale.

I'm glad a few people have brought up the sound issue. While sound is totally subjective, I do think many people have a problem confusing "accurate" vs. "quality" sound. Even in the three real market we have several examples of the same engine, recorded at the same time by two different companies and for some reason, the sound "quality" is different. They are both "accurate" but one is clearly better sounding.

Fast forward to the sounds of today, ESU-Loksound has produced some of the most "accurate" sounds currently available, but in the shell of an HO unit, the noise (so far that I have heard) I just don't think the "quality" is there. This is no fault of Loksound, just the limits of HO size. Accuracy vs. Quality.

The other reason for me moving from fine scale to O was that I could satisfy both interests in O. Meaning I could have fun, operating cars and accessories that I could engage with my kids and I could have scale models. Actually, "modeling" in O is easier for me due to the size. I get a kick out of people who call themselves "model railroaders" but just get their panties in a wad because they can't make a simple bracket for some Kadee couplers or can't figure out how shorten or lengthen a drawbar for their needs.

Take a look at what Doug (Laidoffsick) is having to go through to get the new Sunset 3rd rail F7s to look right. He is "modeling" and figuring out how to make things right. There is a satisfaction that he will have when he is done. For the most part, these are fairly simple, but time consuming upgrades. The point is that the modeling can be done in O rather easy vs. not as simple in HO.

Charlie

Someone mentioned in another thread that Broadway Ltd has just come out with "Rolling Thunder" which incorporates a floor subwoofer with a receiver that picks up the low frequencies from the locomotives giving great sound.

http://www.broadway-limited.com/rollingthunder.aspx

Had thought of this many years ago when I played bass and wondered how to play some of the early Railsounds through my amp.Have never been too good at technology and especially back then...

About 12 years ago I had a really small place and was thinking about doing an H.O. layout. I compared the basic curve minimum using 027 track and H.O. 15 inch curves, I was able to put the 027 track circle inside the H.O. 15 inch curves. So I didn't go with H.O. at the time, as the track size to me was almost as large in the curves as O gauge track. 

I later did an H.O. layout in a 3 ft. by 5 ft. area and the curves were very small around 15 inch and a few 18 inch curves. Also used some H.O. flex track and found that it limited some of my engines and freight cars because of the narrow radius curves that I had made.

Basic H.O. engines can be bought for a few dollars less then O gauge but I still like O gauge better. Some of the new H.O. with DCC and other features will cost as much as an O gauge engine.

Lee Fritz

Bob Delbridge posted:

Sounds like you'd prefer to stay in O-scale IF you had CSX engines and rolling stock.

Well, yes and no. CSX, especially early CSX is one of my all time favorite RR's, so I would love to get more CSX in O, and I probably will start turning to CSX more in my purchases. At the same time, though, I want to do HO because I want to model a real place, preferably Sandpatch grade. Because of space, I can't do this in O scale, except for a few miles vs HO where I can model much more, for example, from Falls Cut Tunnel east to the summit.

Hello, Michael.

Based upon what you've indicated as far as your planned area of focus for HO, I'm sure you'll enjoy yourself very much as there has been an impressive variety of accurate CSX models offered by several companies. Quite a few different types of EMD and GE locomotives, most with detailing specific to their CSX prototypes, have been released. Atlas and Athearn in particular have come out with some fantastic CSX units. There's no shortage of rolling stock either so you should be all set.

As far as HO sound is concerned, I've found the level of quality to be quite suitable in terms of being in the proper proportion to the size of the models. I've been extremely satisfied with both the quality and accuracy of the available systems. ESU LokSound, in particular, is fabulous. I have a Baldwin S-8 by Bowser which is equipped with LokSound. I've been around a lot of Baldwin diesels and the sound reproduction is impeccable. I could listen to the thing all day.

One last note: I'm a multi-scaler as well...O, HO and N...and I enjoy what each of the individual scales has to offer. I'm certain you'd have a lot of fun modeling CSX in HO.

I hope this helps.

Bob  

Why don't you try to do Fine Scale. I know this is a hard scale to find but it is bigger than HO. Fine Scale comes more in Narrow Gauge styles such as DRGW, RGS and C&S. HO is a good scale but for me Scale speed in HO, is to slow for me, I would rather run 3-rail stuff at Scale Speeds which you can actually see them move.

Hey everyone, here's a quick track plan I drew up in English class today. It's based off of the track plan I posted earlier. I just don't like that curve at Sandpatch. It's supposed to go right, not left! Like I said, this looks like it could be a modular layout  so I could easily assemble and disassemble it.

Dude:

You shouldn't be sketching track plans in English class!

Bob

As a kid, I had three rail tinplate.  I got into HO from reading the magazines and seeing all the different rolling stock and structure kits that were available, and not existent (this is still a problem in O) in O.  I never finished my HO layout (although I collected a lot of equipment for it) because I became of automobile age and went off on that tangent.  I later was introduced to a Greenberg book showing all the tinplate I never had and  I became interested again.

Everything, structure kit or rolling stock, I would want, has been available, most since the 1950's, in HO.

Above comments about HO track, and tracking, and fragility of equipment I experienced.  I built HO rolling stock and structures.  O scale rolling stock and structures are easier to build and to work on, and, IMO, make for a more substantial and satisfying model.  If you work with tubular track in three rail, trains will run, often with little effort.  HO requires close attention to detail, even, or especially,  with trackwork.

Much of what I would want in O three rail has never been available commercially, and what is offered often seems excruciatingly repetitious and redundant.  ("we are not going to restyle the Model T Ford, we are just going to put an overhead cam engine in it, electronic fuel injection on it, and disc brakes under it") 

However, if you do not want or like tubular track, than getting track in O three rail becomes much more difficult and expensive in three rail, and this seems to be worsening.

"I drew up in English class today" Hope your teacher doesn't see this.

I've always found that there is a lot more variety in HO than O gauge, or any other scale for that matter. There are so many different companies that it's hard to find something that somebody doesn't make. Granted I model mostly 1870-1910 in HO, which is still difficult to find but there's a lot more out there for a reasonable price (like $20 Rivarossis) than say thousands of dollars for the good looking ones in O scale, and it's a lot easier to kitbash them.

I don't know what the variety of CSX locomotives out there are between HO & O, never took a liking to those diesel things

Still in English class? You're young, you have good eyesight. HO is far less expensive scale vs scale. Just go for it. You can probably build your planned layout for less than cost of one Legacy engine today.

Pete

HO

Pros: It's a train.

Cons: It's not O.

The choice seems obvious.

Steven J. Serenska

You should post this question on a HO forum also.  

CNJ 3676 posted:

Dude:

You shouldn't be sketching track plans in English class!

Bob

Don't worry, this close to X mas break, we're not even doing anything!

SDIV Tim posted:

Why don't you try to do Fine Scale. I know this is a hard scale to find but it is bigger than HO. Fine Scale comes more in Narrow Gauge styles such as DRGW, RGS and C&S. HO is a good scale but for me Scale speed in HO, is to slow for me, I would rather run 3-rail stuff at Scale Speeds which you can actually see them move.

Yes, but I want to model standard gauge railroading, which you can't get in On30!

a huge pro for HO is watching articulated locomotives negotiate prototypical 10° or wider mainline curves without having to live in an aircraft hanger.

O 3 rail with large scale engines which I like take up a lot of real estate in terms of curves on the size of  6'-8' in a peninsula that is huge.  HO curves take up a lot smaller footprint 2'-4' diameter and can be smaller depending upon what you run. People complain of the price point of HO, a Big Boy Athearn is about $500 or less with DCC and Sound. A new top of the line Lionel Vision Big Boy is closer to $2000. Ton of used and new HO items to be had at train shows for low cost too. If your younger take the plunge to HO and try it out you can always go back to O.

overlandflyer posted:

a huge pro for HO is watching articulated locomotives negotiate prototypical 10° or wider mainline curves without having to live in an aircraft hanger.

A 10 degree curve even in HO is a HUGE curve. It is 79" RADIUS. The good news is, (according to, and originally posted by Hot Water on another thread) big steam locomotives do not need 10 degree curves:

"For example, listed below are curve negation figures for the "big three" UP steam locomotives:

Operating forward

1) 800 class 4-8-4s  =  14 degree curve.

2) 3900 class 4-6-6-4s  =  17 degree curve.

3) 4000 class 4-8-8-4s  =  16 degree curve.

 Backing up

All three classes  =  12 degree curve."

Michael, I understand you are into modern CSX diesels so I know that does not apply to you. I don't know the minimum curve radii for modern CSX diesels but I would think they are little sharper than Big Boys and Challengers. Not that it really matters as the HO versions will handle much sharper curves than the prototype.

 Michael, it appears to me that you have pretty much already made up your mind. You don't need the OK from the forum to go to HO. You are not the first person to leave O for HO and you won't be the last. So don't worry about it and just jump right in. As long as you're having fun that's all that matters. For what you want to accomplish and the space you have I think you will be better off in HO and like someone else posted you can always come back to O if you have a change of heart.

..... I don't know what the variety of CSX locomotives out there are between HO & O, never took a liking to those diesel things

Lots and lots of CSX is available ... now and all the time. Various different yard switchers, different big road units, everything. Top of the line decoder/sound equipped .... and basic models.

As stated ...... with HO .... so  much is available. The world is your oyster!

Its not better than O .... just different.

 Have fun!