Zstuff relay problem

Sounds like the relay is only getting a momentary application of

power. (operates than releases). The relays are designed to

operate with Z-Stuff switch motors, as far as I know. What kind

of switch motors are U using? You need to to keep power applied

to the relay until the switch changes back to the mainline.

I'm using Zstuff DZ1000 switches.  My first relay ,which works perfectly, was purchased several years ago and just installed.  I have installed two of my latest purchase of six relays, and both exhibit the same problem.

Well for some reason, the power is being applied only  momentarily to

the relay coil. Causing a temporary change in the lights. Here is a schematic

for the DZ1000 relay. May help, check your connections. May also be bad

contacts in the switch motor. Try changing out the switch motor.

Good luck

Joe

Problem resolved!!  Talked to Dennis Zander twice.  He walked me thru bench testing the 2 bad relays. Both tested bad.  The third relay from my purchase of six works like a charm.  I will be sending the bad 2 back to Dennis.

   NOTE!!  Another problem which can occur with these relays the same symptoms I had, but caused by a defective red LED in the switch machine.  Removing the LED improved the action of the  bad relays, but did not solve the problem. 

   I am going to install my last three relays in the next few days.  I will hold off on sending the bad ones back until I verify that I don't have anymore bad ones.  When Dennis sends back replacements or repaired relays, he is also going to send replacement LEDs.  Think I will also buy a spare DZ1000 for test purposes since someone suggested that the relay problem could be caused by a fault in the switch motor.     Thanks for all the advice!!

OT,

I took a Z1000 motor and controller apart and made a schematic of it to understand its operation and why some never throw completely.  I then prototyped a better circuit that would use two internal microswitches rather than one, and insured the motor stayed fully activated to its stroke completion.  Sent this design to Dennis but never heard back if he was interested in this idea gratis.

 

Just a comment.

Always test these relays on the bench before installing them.  Fiddling with the seven skinny wires under the layout only to have to redo the whole thing can drive anyone nuts.  They should put this in bold print on the instructions with the disclaimer - There is a good chance this product we delivered to you is defective out of the box - you must check this yourself because our quality control is defective.  That being said, the times you get a good one they work great.  Good luck with your install.

OUCH!!

Hi All,

The relay temporarily operating in the RED position with a DZ-1000 problem is due to the supplier in Taiwan using really cheap RED LEDs that leak enough current to cause the relay to not hold. So, it isn't a BAD relay, but a BAD RED LED. To test this, just pull the RED LED out of the DZ-1000. If the relay operates correctly, e-mail Dennis (me) at drzander@aol.com and I'll send you replacements. OR you can just buy RED LEDs from Radio Shack if you like. But, as always we'll stand behind our product and fix it so your happy.

Thanks Dennis

That answer make a lot more sense.

Which brings up the lack of detailed schematics of the various devices so that one could diagnose an issue like that. I fully understand some of the reasons companies don't publish details. And the block diagrams are extensive by Z Stuff. Good. But I am somewhat frustrated when trying to understand the details of what is inside the product I might like to buy.

Hi,

I have traced out the Z1000 motor and controller and can mail to you if interested,

Sorry you had to go to all that trouble. We provide circuit drawings when someone makes a request. Of course, you didn't have a way of knowing that K-line ripped off our deisng and therefore the circuits are identical.

Yes thankyou. My email is in my profile.

Thanks Dennis. I didn't think to ask...figured the reason is just what you said about corporate theft.

Hi,

 

I think it makes sense to provide circuit drawings only upon request.  I suspect that most modelers wouldn't understand the drawings.  I certainly wouldn't understand them.  The drawings would end up in my recycle bin.

 

I don't have the skills to install a new resistor or capacitor on a board anyhow.  I couldn't fix a defective circuit even if I did understand the drawings.

 

All I want to know is how to hook something up correctly and help, including a replacement device, if it doesn't work.  I really don't care what happens inside a black box.

 

Joe

Thanks for the schematic Sam.

 

I also looked at the K Line switch schematics and see the similarity Dennis

Never fully got my questions answered on a similar thread. But since I just bought 4 of the Z stuff relays, maybe Dennis might help me. Can someone explain to me in simple terms why the K-line controllers areleft and right specific. If they arecopies of the Z stuff, are those controllers also "handed"? Since K-line is no longer and this forum is about information, how about some useful advice? Can anyone explain the functioning in simple terms. I showed a K-line schematic that someone posted on this forum to some EEs and the all said some of the diodes are backwards. But the poster never identified it as a left or right hand controller schematic. Maybe RRfan can post his improved circuit. Or explain the issues with the current one. Thanks Fred

Typo. Meant RRMan

I do have a long winded technical explanation I wrote up to clarify how it worked for myself so I would not have to revisit how it works later.  I can post it.  Reason the controllers are different was to get the motor to turn in the right direction for normal and revers direction.

I tripple checked the diode orientions when I traced the schematics.

Were the EEs thinking the power was DC?

They knew it was AC. The if there are supposed to be two schematics, I would like to see both for left and right. They showed me how a bridge rectifier turns Ac into Dc by using Red and Blue Arrows going in opposite directions. He then did the same to the schematic and said that one half of the circuit was gated so no current would flow. He said unless he was misunderstanding something, he thought it would only throw in one direction. Like I said before, I am just learning about this stuff so am in no way qualified to say what or who is right. FMH

Hi Rrman, Can you tell me which schematic you posted left or right and I would like to read your technical explanation of how it works. Can you point me to the post. Thanks FMH

Hi RRMan, I just took two K-line LED left hand controllers apart. I can not up load photos from my I phone. Will do tomorrow. One is the "normal" type. The one that I have the most of and one is the other type that I have a few of. That has the three White hash marks on both the wire and the switch for the wire that goes closed to the fixed voltage terminal. When wiring my SC-1's with three wire red, black and white, I noticed that these only worked properly with the red and black switched. Using white for common. Just opened them up and sure enough the yellow and blue wires are clearly reversed in the controller. Now since the LEDs are in the same location and assuming the throw direction for switch is the same then clearly it is possible that there are two different versions. The hash marks painted White are also molded into the switch base. Same number 27514 on controller. Just wired different. I took another "normal" one apart just to make sure. Not sure how this changes the discussion. FMH

K-line did the wiring modification so that all the remote controls could be mounted on the panel and all the GRN LEDs and RED LEDs would line up. This is not the case with the DZ-1000 since they are all identical and we have not make Left and Right switch machines. In this case, using the DZ-1008 with the K-line switch should not be a problem, but its GRN/YEL wires MAY need to be reversed when connecting them. That will be to be tested to know for sure.

Thanks Dennis, I am sure the relays will work.

 

It looks like that K-line just reversed the board in the controller for lefts and rights. Then swapped the LED's to get them to all line up. Which would make sense but also means there should be two distinct schematics. or possible four. see photos

 

Both LH K-line remotes.

LED boards are oriented same way and the wires on board are wired as lableled.

One would think the one of them would "throw" opposite of the LED orientation but it does not.

Might have to dismantle all and photograph.

I discovered that fact a while back. Ross mounts all the switch motors
on the outside of the switch. Since there is only one kind of switch motor
this configuration favors the "left hand" switch when looking at the
wireing diagram. My sollution, was to turn the switch motor around.
For reasons, don't remember, reversing the wires didn't work. I got the reverse
motor idea from one of the Ross switchs I received.
There were mounting holes on both ties, which suggested that the
motor was mounted differently at one time.
In the first photo there is a "right hand" switch with the reversed mounted
motor. You can see the holes from the origional mounting. The other photo
is a "left hand" switch with the motor as delivered.
So all my Ross "right hand" switches have the DZ switch motors reversed.
That way, all the wiring stays the same(green is "through" and yellow is "out")

 

Joe the Bro

You can however mount the Z1000 the same everywhere then simply pull out the LEDs and exchange positions.  The housing LED openings are D shaped to insure the LED flat side is correctly oriented.  Ditto the controllers.  Ditto the KLIne motors.

 

I tried reversing the LEDs and other wires. Didn't work for me. Reversing

the switch motor seemed the simplest. No messing with LEDs or changing the

color code for the wires. Now when I'm under the table trouble shooting

a problem, I know what the green wire and yellow will do to the switch position.

It worked for me. Just letting you-all know how I got around the problem.

Messing with my DZ-1008A relays tonight. Not sure what the "A" stands for because the rest of instructions call it a DZ-1008. Finally figured it out. Works fine with my K-line switch and it really does not matter which controller post I use to trigger the relay because you can just reverse the signal lamp connections. What I can not figure out is what the yellow wire is for. Does not seem to do anything or at least I could not get it to do anything. Table 1 identifies it as L-DZ1000 but it is not shown being used in any of the diagrams in the instructions. Maybe it is supposed to be used instead of the green wire if you have a left instead of a right switch motor but that is only a wild guess and does not seem to make sense. Maybe Dennis might clarify. FMH

Look at the PDF in my post on Jan 28. Its a schmatic of the DZ1008. That will

show you what the yellow wire does.

Looking at the PDF, the yellow wire does nothing...

Hi Cjack, The .pdf that Joe is referring tells me about the same as what I already knew. I have the same Table 1 in my instructions. Just not that diagram. And i wonder why is mine called a DZ-1008A. It goes from the relay to the switch. Anyone have an idea of what it's function is? Thanks FMH

My guess, and this is only a guess. I think the early DZ1000 switch motors did not

come pre-wired. So if you connected a DZ1008 to the motor using the pins, the

relay is between the switch motor and the control unit. So the yellow and green wires are an extention of the connections to the switch motor. Without those, you

couldn't control the switch motor. But, for a more definitive answer, we'll have to

wait for Dennis to chime in.

BTW: all my relays are remote mounted, so I don't use the yellow wire.

Joe

Hi Joe. I think you are right about the yellow. It is just a pass through to a manual controller. And the green is used to trigger the relay and also pass thru to the controller. In my case it is doing nothing. FMH