Goodbye DCS Remote announced at York - Bummer

If what you say is true I guess MTH is targeting the established modeler and leaving the set trains to Lionel. 

Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:

 

 

One thing to note that both Lionel and MTH booth personnel were dealing with their issues trying to get their apps to work in there booths.  Not disparaging Wi-Fi control, just saying how important is was to both companies to market.  That seemed to be their big Harrah push.

 WiFi interference in that building is horrible.  I'm not surprised they were having issues.  

Mr. Kunkel also told me that Lionel has no plans to phase out remote.  An easy to use remote (a plus for MTH) going away, and Lionel keeping theirs (now an exclusive plus for Lionel) should be looked at closer.  It will be a feature Lionel has that will no longer offered by MTH.  Pretty bold move.

 I suspect Lionel will be dropping their remote in a few years.  I don't think their WiFi app is as developed as the DCS app which does everything the DCS remote does and more.  We were told at the Legacy meeting the WiFi app getting an update. 

I think I got this right.  Feel free to correct me.  By the way, remember the importance of the "playable horn" which will not be accessible with the current remote.

I'm a hardware remote guy myself but see the writing on the wall.  

Time to pick up a few spare remotes. 

Disappointing... I have both options, and prefer the "eye-free" DCS remote

I have been considering either DCS OR Legacy.  Looks like my decision is made....

I’m not a WiFi guy but we can’t stop technology. The times they are a changing.

More reason to stay conventional......my phone is a phone.....it will not load the App.....thus I'll stay with standing at m Z-4000.....

MTH obsoleted the 50-1001 TIU & Remote bundle this last summer and replaced it with the 50-1036 TIU & WiFi bundle. This was shown in the 2018 Vol. 2 catalog.

Still using same Tiu/remote set bought new from 2002  with new spare remote added at the same time they should outlast me.

Very disappointing to me.  I prefer the remote.  I think MTH is making a mistake they will likely regret down the road.  Also, if you have more than one TIU, you have to buy WiFi for each of them, imagine how the operators of large layouts are going to react.

MartyE posted:

Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:

 One thing to note that both Lionel and MTH booth personnel were dealing with their issues trying to get their apps to work in there booths.  Not disparaging Wi-Fi control, just saying how important is was to both companies to market.  That seemed to be their big Harrah push.

 WiFi interference in that building is horrible.  I'm not surprised they were having issues.  

Mr. Kunkel also told me that Lionel has no plans to phase out remote.  An easy to use remote (a plus for MTH) going away, and Lionel keeping theirs (now an exclusive plus for Lionel) should be looked at closer.  It will be a feature Lionel has that will no longer offered by MTH.  Pretty bold move.

 I suspect Lionel will be dropping their remote in a few years.  I don't think their WiFi app is as developed as the DCS app which does everything the DCS remote does and more.  We were told at the Legacy meeting the WiFi app getting an update. 

I think I got this right.  Feel free to correct me.  By the way, remember the importance of the "playable horn" which will not be accessible with the current remote.

I'm a hardware remote guy myself but see the writing on the wall.  

Unfortunately that will require multiple TIU users to purcha$e multiple MTH WiFi units. And as mentioned by EddieM and others, you loose the intuitive touch/feel of the remote.

It seems that manufacturers have gone toward marketing driven by them projecting what we want.  I really think that a survey or marketing effort to the users by MTH would be helpful in making a proper decision.  GM tried manufacturer driven marketing back in the 70's and 80's and thought all we wanted was the hood ornament on the Caprice Classic.  Boy, that really worked as a business model.  I submit the Andy and Mike W. may want to look at "stepping back" as the direction they want to go.  Technology is great, but touch and feel are still important.  Of course, they are the experts.

So, will this decision bring new people into the Hobby? Will this increase sales for MTH for those into the Hobby?

Bad mistake by MTH.

Above are personal views and if push comes to shove, just run my trains conventional and avoid any new engines if and when my controllers die.

I'm surprised this news is regarded as "new" from those who have been around for a few years or more.  This was actually suggested quite a while ago (by Mike, during a TCA Museum talk{edit - I think Chris (below) and I probably saw the same talk}).  Understandable for anyone more recently joining the hobby, since they weren't here to hear it back when it was first suggested.

Mike definitely loves the App.  With all the delays and money he must have poured in developing the DCS system way back when, I can understand from a development standpoint why he wants to go that way.  Much cheaper to develop software for a piece of hardware you don't have to build than to have to develop both.

He also talked up the fact that everyone already has a smart phone (or many do, at least).  He considered it a benefit that people could do what they want with a piece of hardware many already have rather than spend more money on a separate remote.

I'm fully in the hardware remote camp as well.  I can't stand looking at a screen to control a train since I can't feel for anything but the home and volume buttons on an iPod/iPhone.

-Dave

MTH did send out a questioner a while back asking what we would like to see in a remote then they went full steam with the app and that was the end of that. This isn’t anything new MTH had plans a few York’s back to phase out the remote.  

I run trains as a break from daily life. That means putting the phone & tablet down.

I think I'll go back to conventional control at some point. 

As much as I would like to get DCS running on my layout, it just seems too finicky for me. It gives me a headache. I run Lionel Legacy just fine and my beautiful MTH locomotives I run in conventional.

Another reason, among many, that I'm glad I opted for Lionel PW and conventional Lionel, Williams, MTH and Weaver.  

I thought MTH announced a while back that they would keep making remotes. I don't own a cell phone let alone  smart phone and don't want either. Guess I better start buying spare remotes.

I suspect that MTH has a pretty good handle on what sells and what will sell in the future.  They probably figure that they will not sell enough of the DCS handheld's to make it worth their while vs. the Wifi ap.

It might also be that it cannot be updated without a major overhaul to do what they want it to do (or what we will want it to do) in the next few years.  The Smart Device/Wifi Ap probably has far fewer limitations in terms of features and innovations over time.

That being said, I still like to use the handheld and probably use it about 50% of the time.

This isn’t new, they told us this last year. Might have to buy a couple spare remotes

feet posted:

I thought MTH announced a while back that they would keep making remotes. I don't own a cell phone let alone  smart phone and don't want either. Guess I better start buying spare remotes.

I think after some initial feedback when this topic first surfaced, they stated that they would make "some more" remotes, way back when.  Supposedly the "last run" was supposed to be large enough to support demand for quite a while, but we shall see how hard they become to buy in the near future, I guess.

If you have wireless internet at home, you can try a non-phone device like a tablet or iPod Touch.  Those suffer from the same issue of being a screen, but don't require you to be shelling out for a smart phone bill each month after the purchase of the hardware (again, assuming you have high speed internet with wi-fi at home - I'm not sure if there may be some way to get the apps on these devices via hard wire if you don't use a wi-fi router - if there is, I don't know how).   I think I bought my latest iPod touch (used for things other than controlling my trains) in May of this year for around $190 at a local big box store.

-Dave

I read this before April York and tried to buy some more thumbwheels at the show and was told they are out of stock. Same story last week. They said they have to order 500 minimum. Doesn't look like thats going to happen so when your handheld dies, thats it unless you have a spare(s). Bummer.

Pete

Norton posted:

I read this before April York and tried to buy some more thumbwheels at the show and was told they are out of stock. Same story last week. They said they have to order 500 minimum. Doesn't look like thats going to happen so when your handheld dies, thats it unless you have a spare(s). Bummer.

Pete

I know the feeling. I tried to order a dozen and set them aside. Wonder how many would opt to make it to the minimum?

As much as I do not like the whole electronic takeover of train running let us take a real look of what the future will bring.  I come into the train room (or not), put on my googles or helmet call for the heads up display and do a quick over view of the entire railroad empire.  I check all my overhead cameras that give me a look at the entire layout.  I then decide which engine I will start on its programed run.  The engine camera is working so I start it in motion.  I then move to the other trains awaiting my signal and or new program for the session.  As the trains are up and running I check them with the overheads and or the front camera before I turn my attention to the accessories that I want to have operating.  A friend comes in (late as usual) put on his helmet and takes over control of the trains that are his responsibility.  Then I remember to crank up the wifi so that the operation goes live.  After all we get 200-300 viewers a day watching the operation.  That does not include those that have signed up to run the trains that they have paid to control in this session.

OK, my question, 'how far in the future are we from this operating session'?

I must agree with the general feeling of disappointment. I am of the generation that grew up with PC's and obtained smartphones in my early teens so I am of the "WiFi" era.

I recently added the WIU to my DCS/Legacy Setup at home and I must say, I still find myself HEAVILY reliant on the DCS and Legacy remotes. The APP just hasn't really loured me in, I find the APP adds a few seconds to my response times and doesn't give me the tactile feedback I have grown accustomed to. The only feature, I guess, you can say is better on the APP is the Whistle feature as Quillable whistle with the DCS remote was a bit cumbersome.

My WIU has been more of a gateway to introduce my daughters to the hobby as if they drop my phone (In a protective case and with accidental damage warranty, these are things you quickly add as a new parent) they can simply pick it up and keep playing vs the DCS remote runs the risk of being permanently damaged and it seems they find it easier to use. My wife, who also has never used the remotes, also agrees the APP is easy for her to understand and use.

I guess if you have never used the remote before, you would not know the ease of using the remote, and all it has offered us in the passed. New comers seem to like it better from what I can tell.

I understand the cost involved with the remote as some have mentioned/saved going the WIU way, but I don't understand the complete removal of the remote product. Offer both options, or the remote as an "upgrade", or "downgrade" depending on your views, that way you cater to both crowds. The money for engineering the remote has already been spent, the customer base has been established, why toss that to the wind completely?

Hey Mike and MTH have made it this far in the game and we are still buying their stuff so they must know something we don't.

P.s., everyone has a smart phone, but the APP is best used on a device with a large display like an iPad. I use my phone but I know it will be better on a larger device.

Dave45681 posted:

If you have wireless internet at home, you can try a non-phone device like a tablet or iPod Touch.  Those suffer from the same issue of being a screen, but don't require you to be shelling out for a smart phone bill each month after the purchase of the hardware (again, assuming you have high speed internet with wi-fi at home - I'm not sure if there may be some way to get the apps on these devices via hard wire if you don't use a wi-fi router - if there is, I don't know how).   I think I bought my latest iPod touch (used for things other than controlling my trains) in May of this year for around $190 at a local big box store.

-Dave

For the record, if you can have someone help you get the App on your tablet you don't need wireless internet in your home. My understanding is that the MTH WiFi device has the ability to send out its own WiFi signal independently just for your trains. Others with more experience can chime in where that switch is located or if there is an easier way to download the App to your tablet.

MTH set this up so that it doesn't matter what devices you currently use in your life, just grab a second hand tablet around the same cost of the remote if your using WiFi and your good to go.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Very disappointing to me.  I prefer the remote.  I think MTH is making a mistake they will likely regret down the road.  Also, if you have more than one TIU, you have to buy WiFi for each of them, imagine how the operators of large layouts are going to react.

John

Totally Agree with you. Poor decision on MTH's part. BTW the TMB club runs DCS with 5 TIU's  in Super Mode, so a change will require 5 WiFi packages. I like as it is now with WiFi as a user option, so MTH should continue to offer both

SGP posted:

Dave45681 posted:

If you have wireless internet at home, you can try a non-phone device like a tablet or iPod Touch.  Those suffer from the same issue of being a screen, but don't require you to be shelling out for a smart phone bill each month after the purchase of the hardware (again, assuming you have high speed internet with wi-fi at home - I'm not sure if there may be some way to get the apps on these devices via hard wire if you don't use a wi-fi router - if there is, I don't know how).   I think I bought my latest iPod touch (used for things other than controlling my trains) in May of this year for around $190 at a local big box store.

-Dave

For the record, if you can have someone help you get the App on your tablet you don't need wireless internet in your home. My understanding is that the MTH WiFi device has the ability to send out its own WiFi signal independently just for your trains. Others with more experience can chime in where that switch is located or if there is an easier way to download the App to your tablet.

MTH set this up so that it doesn't matter what devices you currently use in your life, just grab a second hand tablet around the same cost of the remote if your using WiFi and your good to go.

"Same cost of the remote" - I bought a pair of RCA tablets last year for $25 each at Shopko and both run the app the perfectly.

SGP posted:

Dave45681 posted:

If you have wireless internet at home, you can try a non-phone device like a tablet or iPod Touch.  Those suffer from the same issue of being a screen, but don't require you to be shelling out for a smart phone bill each month after the purchase of the hardware (again, assuming you have high speed internet with wi-fi at home - I'm not sure if there may be some way to get the apps on these devices via hard wire if you don't use a wi-fi router - if there is, I don't know how).   I think I bought my latest iPod touch (used for things other than controlling my trains) in May of this year for around $190 at a local big box store.

-Dave

For the record, if you can have someone help you get the App on your tablet you don't need wireless internet in your home. My understanding is that the MTH WiFi device has the ability to send out its own WiFi signal independently just for your trains. Others with more experience can chime in where that switch is located or if there is an easier way to download the App to your tablet.

MTH set this up so that it doesn't matter what devices you currently use in your life, just grab a second hand tablet around the same cost of the remote if your using WiFi and your good to go.

I forgot to mention.  Upgraded app (25.00) x DCS users (???) to get features we have with remote, TIU, & AIU.  Sounds like income without representation ($$$) to me.  I don't care about the $25.00.  I am also not adverse to spending the money for a "Premier Plus" remote to keep the physical unit as the conduit.  It's the aggravation part of the transition that turns me off.  MTH - What are your thoughts?  Sounds like a great customer satisfaction opportunity.  A company really shines with how they deal with adversity.

BTW.  I have reached out to Andy with MTH.  Wouldn't hurt if others also reached out to them.  Like our rolling inventory.  The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:

I forgot to mention.  Upgraded app (25.00) x DCS users (???) to get features we have with remote, TIU, & AIU.  Sounds like income without representation ($$$) to me.

We have a single google account that has already purchased the upgraded $25 app. Anyone who uses that account to download the app doesn't pay for each device and or user of the premium app. Our cost to install the premium app on 6 devices was a total of $25.

PS  Everyone does not have a smartphone.

I agree that the remote fits well for one handed operation as well.

A true bummer.  Of course some could have said the same thing about the demise of the two position pendulum reverse unit.

SGP posted:

For the record, if you can have someone help you get the App on your tablet you don't need wireless internet in your home. My understanding is that the MTH WiFi device has the ability to send out its own WiFi signal independently just for your trains. Others with more experience can chime in where that switch is located or if there is an easier way to download the App to your tablet.

MTH set this up so that it doesn't matter what devices you currently use in your life, just grab a second hand tablet around the same cost of the remote if your using WiFi and your good to go.

Correct, of course.  I meant to imply the internet connection was needed in order to get the App on the devices, but your right that they can talk directly to the DCS WiFi unit once the App is installed.

As to the discussion of abandoning the already engineered remote, it has been suggested (or even stated as a hard fact, but I can't quote a source off the top of my head) that it is a parts availability issue.  It's will not be feasible to continue "just ordering more" of the same thing.  Considering the TIU/Remote first came out in 2002 (and was in development for at least 2+ years before that most likely), it's not hard to believe some of the 16+ year old parts are no longer available from the tech companies that actually make the chips.

Therefore, continuing to offer the remote would require at least some level of a re-design.  That is what MTH is trying to avoid.

-Dave

Dave45681 posted:

SGP posted:

For the record, if you can have someone help you get the App on your tablet you don't need wireless internet in your home. My understanding is that the MTH WiFi device has the ability to send out its own WiFi signal independently just for your trains. Others with more experience can chime in where that switch is located or if there is an easier way to download the App to your tablet.

MTH set this up so that it doesn't matter what devices you currently use in your life, just grab a second hand tablet around the same cost of the remote if your using WiFi and your good to go.

Correct, of course.  I meant to imply the internet connection was needed in order to get the App on the devices, but your right that they can talk directly to the DCS WiFi unit once the App is installed.

As to the discussion of abandoning the already engineered remote, it has been suggested (or even stated as a hard fact, but I can't quote a source off the top of my head) that it is a parts availability issue.  It's will not be feasible to continue "just ordering more" of the same thing.  Considering the TIU/Remote first came out in 2002 (and was in development for at least 2+ years before that most likely), it's not hard to believe some of the 16+ year old parts are no longer available from the tech companies that actually make the chips.

Therefore, continuing to offer the remote would require at least some level of a re-design.  That is what MTH is trying to avoid.

-Dave

I have read that on this forum before and that might be true BUT!!! to your logic, those said discontinued components have either gotten cheaper to manufacture or a cheaper alternative has been created to replace it.

Electronics get cheaper, smaller, and then replaced with something even cheaper and even smaller and so on and so on.

So MTH doesn't want to re-engineer the remote with modern components does indeed make sense but don't blame the parts, they can be found one way or another. That costs prohibit those changes is a different deal of course.

I will be the contrarian and offer that it makes little sense to be wed to hardware that is more than a decade old, actually I think closer to 15 years old.   The best example of the problems associated with this approach is when Lionel was trying to get new Legacy handhelds made.  They did, eventually, and that is a credit to their commitment to the customer but being bound to such old hardware creates risks and problems that no business wants to contend with.  Further, I am sure MTH has done market research to support the move to the app, not just Mike's personal preferences.  The app will prove more reliable than the handhelds, which eat batteries quickly and have a tendency to have that thumbwheel wear out prematurely. 

Further, for anyone in the hobby who is reasonably young, like those kids we always talk about wanting to attract, the app is much more intuitive.  Both of my boys use the MTH app to control the trains.  The other handheld controls remain unused except when I run them.  If this biggest challenge in the hobby is attracting new, younger entrants, the handhelds are dinosaurs and are no longer worth the cost to maintain. 

At some point this debate will go away as there will be direct Bluetooth control of the full suite of Legacy and DCS features.  I suspect they could do it now, but neither Lionel or MTH wants to make their proprietary box-based control systems obsolete, at least not yet.  Lionel is giving us a glimpse of this with some of the LC+ product.  More of that will come, most certainly. 

H1000 posted:

Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:

I forgot to mention.  Upgraded app (25.00) x DCS users (???) to get features we have with remote, TIU, & AIU.  Sounds like income without representation ($$$) to me.

We have a single google account that has already purchased the upgraded $25 app. Anyone who uses that account to download the app doesn't pay for each device and or user of the premium app. Our cost to install the premium app on 6 devices was a total of $25.

$25.00 per user, up to 6 devices.  I am talking about $25.00 x user, not $25.00 x devices.  Still $25.00 x users is real money.  Customer money.  Every user will spend $25.00.  Can't estimate because I don't know how many DCS users are out there.  I would speculate that there are a few users out there who have or had not intention of using the app.  This does not take into account the users that want to stay under the radar (no wireless tech) because they don't trust anything that goes over a radio wave.  Some avoid potential hacking by not going there.  I know it is safe with DCS and the app.  But there is still an educational process to deal with making people feel secure.  They won't be bothered.  They will be like the quiet customers, and just go away and in time people will ask why?  That is usually to late to reverse the tide.

MTH may avoid making an investment in the remote, but they are also making an investment in Lionel locomotives for me.  Yes, I have a smart phone, a tablet, and even a couple of older smart phones in boxes.  It's not the availability of the WiFi hardware that's the impediment, at least in my case.  I think the MTH WiFi application interface is decent, but I still by far prefer the hand held remote.  I'll buy stuff that I still have a remote to run.

A good, reliable, non glitchy, and ready for prime time wifi app would be great.  I hope MTH's evolves into one some day. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

MTH may avoid making an investment in the remote, but they are also making an investment in Lionel locomotives for me.  Yes, I have a smart phone, a tablet, and even a couple of older smart phones in boxes.  It's not the availability of the WiFi hardware that's the impediment, at least in my case.  I think the MTH WiFi application interface is decent, but I still by far prefer the hand held remote.  I'll buy stuff that I still have a remote to run.

That is a fair point and your decision to spend as you wish.  Mike is betting that more consumers will appreciate and use the app.  It's a business judgment on his part and I think given where the market is, it is a reasonable one.  If he loses customers due to it, that is his loss but I suspect most of the people on this thread expressing a view tend to skew more towards Legacy/ high end operation anyways, so perhaps that is not a loss as far as he is concerned because perhaps he is already ceding the extreme high end to Lionel.  I have no idea what his thinking is but in the year 2018 there are few businesses that want to be wed to 15 year old hardware.